Will we ever stop F...cking with the 'Fertility laws' of nature ?

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Lets look at ireland of the 1950's

- In family life, many parallels to the first civilisation in Mesopotamia. A population triangle with loads of kids at the bottom and very few octogenarians at the top. Most women are mothers by their early twenties, and most were still a virgin on their wedding night. High fertility in families with tons of kids outdoors all playing together.

A working-class man easily able to afford to look after his 'stay at home' missus & kids while keeping dignity and respectability in his community.



And contrast it with 2020

- Unaffordable Housing ....even for a 'double income' couple without kids.
- artificial insemination
- frozen embryos
- doner eggs
- surrogacy ( Sarah Jessica Parker style or Christiano Ronaldo style ).
- abortion
- mass contraception
- delayed parenthood
- our fertility levels dropping off a cliff
- irish women travelling to Denmark to use Sperm Banks
- the promise of genetically altered 'designer babies'
- the statistical reality of Down's Syndrome babies being selected away
- couples making abortion decisions based on their preferred gender for their baby ( certain religions more than others)
- a Welfare State making man X pay (through his taxes) for the kids of man Y.
- and i will not discuss the reproductive options being pursued by the LGBT community, and are these the same as 1950 or different ?
- the future of cloning ?
- gender imbalance in our demographics (lots of men aged 18 to 45 in the country )
- elderly irish men getting young wives from far away. A Mick Jagger scenario of becoming a new dad when you are ancient.
- MGTOW , divorce, and the statistical end of marriage as a lifelong option for the vast majority
- births to the unemployed at a higher rate than births to the middle classes ?
- other


Are these developments good ? or have we messed with Nature to the point that Mother Nature may start feeling vengeful ? Sometimes in the past the 'fertility laws of Nature' were monstrous and aberrant. Ever heard of Gengis Khan ? But there was a Darwinian determinism to things that paralleled other creatures in the animal kingdom. Today ? not so much.

Discuss
 
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page61

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Lets look at ireland of the 1950's

- In family life, many parallels to the first civilisation in Mesopotamia.



And contrast it with 2020

- abortion
- mass contraception
- delayed parenhood
- our fertility levels dropping off a cliff
- irish women travelling to Denmark to use Sperm Banks
- the promise of genetically altered 'designer babies'
- the statistical reality of Down's Syndrome babies being selected away
- couples making abortion decisions based on their preferred gender for their baby ( certain religions more than others)
- a Welfare State making man X pay (through his taxes) for the kids of man Y.
- and i will not discuss the reproductive options being pursued by the LGBT community, and are these the same as 1950 or different ?
- the future of cloning ?
- gender imbalance in our demographics (people aged 18 to 45)
- elderly irish men getting young wives from far away. A Mick Jagger scenario of becoming a new dad when you are ancient.
- MGTOW , divorce, and the statistical end of marriage as a lifelong option for the vast majority
- other


Are these developments good ? or have we messed with Nature to the point that Mother Nature may start feeling vengeful ? Sometimes in the past the 'fertility laws of Nature' were monstrous and aberrant. Ever heard of Gengis Khan ? But there was a Darwinian determinism to things that paralleled other creatures in the animal kingdom. Today ? not so much.

Discuss
You didnt mention Abortion ????
 

Eriugena

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Lets look at ireland of the 1950's

- In family life, many parallels to the first civilisation in Mesopotamia.



And contrast it with 2020

- abortion
- mass contraception
- delayed parenhood
- our fertility levels dropping off a cliff
- irish women travelling to Denmark to use Sperm Banks
- the promise of genetically altered 'designer babies'
- the statistical reality of Down's Syndrome babies being selected away
- couples making abortion decisions based on their preferred gender for their baby ( certain religions more than others)
- a Welfare State making man X pay (through his taxes) for the kids of man Y.
- and i will not discuss the reproductive options being pursued by the LGBT community, and are these the same as 1950 or different ?
- the future of cloning ?
- gender imbalance in our demographics (people aged 18 to 45)
- elderly irish men getting young wives from far away. A Mick Jagger scenario of becoming a new dad when you are ancient.
- MGTOW , divorce, and the statistical end of marriage as a lifelong option for the vast majority
- other


Are these developments good ? or have we messed with Nature to the point that Mother Nature may start feeling vengeful ? Sometimes in the past the 'fertility laws of Nature' were monstrous and aberrant. Ever heard of Gengis Khan ? But there was a Darwinian determinism to things that paralleled other creatures in the animal kingdom. Today ? not so much.

Discuss
What a great thread idea!
These questions cover some of the most important problems facing us today and into the foreseeable future.
For my part I will break these items into manageable categories for purposes of response as I would like to address most if not all of them. Some of these items fall into two or even all 3 categories.

Intrinsic evils
(an intrinsic evil is something that is of its nature evil regardless of circumstances therefore there are no conditions under which it is morally permissible)
- Abortion
- [artificial] contraception

Ordinary human selfishness exacerbated and inflamed by liberal individualism and the consumerist mentality.
(Some of these also involve intrinsic evils like abortion and contraception)​
- Irish women travelling to Denmark to use Sperm Banks
- the promise of genetically altered 'designer babies'
- the statistical reality of Down's Syndrome babies being selected away couples
- making abortion decisions based on their preferred gender for their baby (certain religions more than others)
- reproductive options being pursued by the LGBT
- elderly Irish men getting young wives from far away. A Mick Jagger scenario of becoming a new dad when you are ancient.

Consequences of the above and of other objective features of modern liberal consumer society.
- cloning
- gender imbalance in our demographics (people aged 18 to 45)
- MGTOW, divorce, and the statistical end of marriage as a lifelong option for the vast majority
 

gerhard dengler

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Great thread, asking the most fundamental questions.

Our lot are raised now. But several weeks ago myself and my wife were asked to look after our niece (5) and nephew (3). Their parents wanted to go away for the weekend. I was actually looking forward to minding the youngsters.

We spent a great weekend with them. They had a great time (apparently they want to live with us!).

But myself and my wife were absolutely physically shattered by the time the kids parents came to collect them that Sunday evening. I'm physically fit but the real task is to be thinking for them and that takes more energy to do arguably. Of course it doesn't help that they're not your own, so you're doubly attentive.

Raising kids should be a task reserved for young people. They're closer to the kids in age terms, they're notionally more physically fit.
 

The Field Marshal

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What a great thread idea!
These questions cover some of the most important problems facing us today and into the foreseeable future.
For my part I will break these items into manageable categories for purposes of response as I would like to address most if not all of them. Some of these items fall into two or even all 3 categories.

Intrinsic evils
(an intrinsic evil is something that is of its nature evil regardless of circumstances therefore there are no conditions under which it is morally permissible)
- Abortion
- [artificial] contraception

Ordinary human selfishness exacerbated and inflamed by liberal individualism and the consumerist mentality.
(Some of these also involve intrinsic evils like abortion and contraception)​
- Irish women travelling to Denmark to use Sperm Banks
- the promise of genetically altered 'designer babies'
- the statistical reality of Down's Syndrome babies being selected away couples
- making abortion decisions based on their preferred gender for their baby (certain religions more than others)
- reproductive options being pursued by the LGBT
- elderly Irish men getting young wives from far away. A Mick Jagger scenario of becoming a new dad when you are ancient.

Consequences of the above and of other objective features of modern liberal consumer society.
- cloning
- gender imbalance in our demographics (people aged 18 to 45)
- MGTOW, divorce, and the statistical end of marriage as a lifelong option for the vast majority
I note your public contempt for the Catholic Sacrament of Holy Matrimony highlighted in the above list.

[A contempt also expressed by antipope Bergolio fwiw].
That,s what always happens to perverted humans and other nasty catholics who start to believe the errors of St Augustine seriously].
 

GodsDog

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I note your public contempt for the Catholic Sacrament of Holy Matrimony highlighted in the above list.

[A contempt also expressed by antipope Bergolio fwiw].
That,s what always happens to perverted humans and other nasty catholics who start to believe the errors of St Augustine seriously].
er... that poster never expressed any public contempt for marriage. Stop misrepresenting the views of others FM.

[MOD]
And no more discussion of "antipope bergoggliooooo" on this thread please. Start (yet) another thread if you wish to discuss him.
[/MOD]
 

Tuco Salamanca

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Lets look at ireland of the 1950's

- In family life, many parallels to the first civilisation in Mesopotamia.



And contrast it with 2020

- abortion
- mass contraception
- delayed parenhood
- our fertility levels dropping off a cliff
- irish women travelling to Denmark to use Sperm Banks
- the promise of genetically altered 'designer babies'
- the statistical reality of Down's Syndrome babies being selected away
- couples making abortion decisions based on their preferred gender for their baby ( certain religions more than others)
- a Welfare State making man X pay (through his taxes) for the kids of man Y.
- and i will not discuss the reproductive options being pursued by the LGBT community, and are these the same as 1950 or different ?
- the future of cloning ?
- gender imbalance in our demographics (people aged 18 to 45)
- elderly irish men getting young wives from far away. A Mick Jagger scenario of becoming a new dad when you are ancient.
- MGTOW , divorce, and the statistical end of marriage as a lifelong option for the vast majority
- other


Are these developments good ? or have we messed with Nature to the point that Mother Nature may start feeling vengeful ? Sometimes in the past the 'fertility laws of Nature' were monstrous and aberrant. Ever heard of Gengis Khan ? But there was a Darwinian determinism to things that paralleled other creatures in the animal kingdom. Today ? not so much.

Discuss
IVF, embryo selection and gene editing technologies aren't going anywhere.
I'm firmly of the opinion that we should embrace them.

And as for the argument that we "shouldn't play God", well that's arguably what we've been doing since we started using tools.
We've been shaped irrevocable by our technology. Everything from the morphology of our jaws, which became smaller after the discovery of fire and hence cooking, to the structure of our brain.

We're getting less intelligent and accumulating more mutations each generation, a process that has been ongoing since the industrial revolution due to the collapse of child mortality.
The Chinese will have no qualms about the use of such technologies.
Where will that leave us?
 

Tuco Salamanca

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What a great thread idea!
These questions cover some of the most important problems facing us today and into the foreseeable future.
For my part I will break these items into manageable categories for purposes of response as I would like to address most if not all of them. Some of these items fall into two or even all 3 categories.

Intrinsic evils
(an intrinsic evil is something that is of its nature evil regardless of circumstances therefore there are no conditions under which it is morally permissible)
- Abortion
- [artificial] contraception

Ordinary human selfishness exacerbated and inflamed by liberal individualism and the consumerist mentality.
(Some of these also involve intrinsic evils like abortion and contraception)​
- Irish women travelling to Denmark to use Sperm Banks
- the promise of genetically altered 'designer babies'
- the statistical reality of Down's Syndrome babies being selected away couples
- making abortion decisions based on their preferred gender for their baby (certain religions more than others)
- reproductive options being pursued by the LGBT
- elderly Irish men getting young wives from far away. A Mick Jagger scenario of becoming a new dad when you are ancient.

Consequences of the above and of other objective features of modern liberal consumer society.
- cloning
- gender imbalance in our demographics (people aged 18 to 45)
- MGTOW, divorce, and the statistical end of marriage as a lifelong option for the vast majority
There is no going back.

We'll just have to find a way to embrace IVF and gene editing technologies. Catholic "natural law" would send us back to the stoneage, while China will look like something out of Starwars.
 

Tuco Salamanca

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I'm sure Irishjohn will come to the West's rescue, employing an arsenal of flower remedies and homeopathic coughdrops.
 

Tuco Salamanca

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Natural law is recognised by the Church but it is not Catholic. It's sources are Plato, Aristotle and the Stoics.
Yes, I'm aware of the origins of natural law and how it got recycled down through the centuries.

I'm reminded of the following from Nietzsche.

"All that philosophers have handled for thousands of years have been concept-mummies; nothing real escaped their grasp alive. When these honorable idolators of concepts worship something, they kill it and stuff it; they threaten the life of everything they worship."
 
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