The Rabbi's quote for Setantawatchl and roc_ on Zionism.

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#1
Okiedokie I found the book this morning so here is the quote, it from what originally was a paper to be addressed to Jewish World Congress in 1979 but in a move without precedent was refused, it was aimed at Gershom Scholem (who was a rabid blood thirsty Zionist as well as being the man responsible for shoving the great German Jewish thinkers Oskar Goldberg and Hans Joachim Schoeps down the memory hole in a similar manner to L'Chaim's efforts to belittle the existence of anti-Zionist Jewry) and the quotation marks within my quote are from his work.

"When in our generation Zionists set out on "the utopian retreat to Zion", rabbinic authorities looked askance on the enterprise on the whole and were frightened by the "overtones of messianism that have accompanied the modern Jewish readiness for irrevocable action in the concrete realm" of history. The messianic claim "has virtually been conjured up" out of the horror and destruction of European Jewry and has allowed wild apocalyptic fantasy to take over political reality in the state of Israel. If the messianic idea in Judaism is not interiorized it can turn the "landscape of redemption" into a blazing apocalypse. If one is enter irrevocably into history, it is imperative to beware of the illusion that redemption (even the beginnings of redemption, athalta di geula) happens on the stage of history. For every attempt to bring about redemption on the level of history without a transfiguration of the messianic ideal leads straight into the abyss. The historian can do no more than set the record straight. But doing so, he can pose a problem and signal a danger in the present Spiritual and political situation of the Jewish people".

From the "Price of Messianism" in Cult and Culture by Jacob Taubes.
 
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#3
That was in 1979, even anything Zionism has become more crazy since than.
Okiedokie I found the book this morning so here is the quote, it from what originally was a paper to be addressed to Jewish World Congress in 1979 but in a move without precedent was refused, it was aimed at Gershom Scholem (who was a rabid blood thirsty Zionist as well as being the man responsible for shoving the great German Jewish thinkers Oskar Goldberg and Hans Joachim Schoeps down the memory hole in a similar manner to L'Chaim's efforts to belittle the existence of anti-Zionist Jewry) and the quotation marks within my quote are from his work.

"When in our generation Zionists set out on "the utopian retreat to Zion", rabbinic authorities looked askance on the enterprise on the whole and were frightened by the "overtones of messianism that have accompanied the modern Jewish readiness for irrevocable action in the concrete realm" of history. The messianic claim "has virtually been conjured up" out of the horror and destruction of European Jewry and has allowed wild apocalyptic fantasy to take over political reality in the state of Israel. If the messianic idea in Judaism is not interiorized it can turn the "landscape of redemption" into a blazing apocalypse. If one is enter irrevocably into history, it is imperative to beware of the illusion that redemption (even the beginnings of redemption, athalta di geula) happens on the stage of history. For every attempt to bring about redemption on the level of history without a transfiguration of the messianic ideal leads straight into the abyss. The historian can do no more than set the record straight. But doing so, he can pose a problem and signal a danger in the present Spiritual and political situation of the Jewish people".

From the "Price of Messianism" in Cult and Culture by Jacob Taubes.
If you look closely in the small print
It says ..for the attention of Sword of Saint Catherine
 
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#6
Everyone is very happy for you Ratio Et Fides that you have managed to find a quote from a scholar of Judaism that seems to affirm your prejudice.


PS Taubes was a sad and a sick man. He was diagnosed with severe clinical depression. He had a highly cynical view of the habits and norms of the world. Would you find in him a kindred spirit, out of interest?
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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#7
Everyone is very happy for you Ratio Et Fides that you have managed to find a quote from a scholar of Judaism that seems to affirm your prejudice.


PS Taubes was a sad and a sick man. He was diagnosed with severe clinical depression. Would you find in him a kindred spirit, out of interest?

You claim you are not a Jew and that you didn't even know what Hanukkah is - and yet you claim you are able to refute a man that you admit is a scholar of Judaism and designate his views as being the same as "prejudice."
 
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#8
You claim you are not a Jew and that you didn't even know what Hanukkah is - and yet you claim you are able to refute a man that you admit is a scholar of Judaism.
I don't claim to be able to refute him.

I just had a quick look up of the reference on Google (btw the paper only had to have the title changed).

I'm not arsed "refuting" him. There are a million opinions out there.

Ratio likes to ferret out a small section of them. Usually one finds a strong whiff of something or other off these "opinions".

If not clinical depression and overdone worldly cynicism, something else. Something probably worse, going by past form.

Anyway, it's an extremely tedious and uninspiring form of attack.
 

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#9
I don't claim to be able to refute him.

I just had a quick look up of the reference on Google (btw the paper only had to have the title changed).

I'm not arsed "refuting" him. There are a million opinions out there.

Ratio likes to ferret out a small section of them. Usually one finds a strong whiff of something or other off these "opinions".

If not clinical depression and overdone worldly cynicism, something else. Something probably worse, going by past form.

Anyway, it's an extremely tedious and uninspiring form of attack.

You claim you are on the side of Jews, but when a Jewish scholar, who has spent his whole life studying Judaism - as did his father before him, says something that disturbs your Zionist propaganda - a quick Google Search is enough for you to dismiss him and even diagnose insanity on his part. Does that not show even you that you have no interest in the Jewish people at all, or sympathy with them. You are just interested in promoting Zionism. And any Jew that gets in the way will be shredded without mercy in the Zionist meat grinder.
 
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#10
You claim you are on the side of Jews, but when a Jewish scholar, who has spent his whole life studying Judaism - as did his father before him, says something that disturbs your Zionist propaganda - a quick Google Search is enough for you to dismiss him and even diagnose insanity on his part. Does that not show even you that you have no interest in the Jewish people at all, or sympathy with them. You are just interested in promoting Zionism. And any Jew that gets in the way will be shredded without mercy in the Zionist meat grinder.
Good man Throbby
You keep projecting your biases and predjuices onto others
Very revealing
 
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#11
Everyone is very happy for you Ratio Et Fides that you have managed to find a quote from a scholar of Judaism that seems to affirm your prejudice.


PS Taubes was a sad and a sick man. He was diagnosed with severe clinical depression. He had a highly cynical view of the habits and norms of the world. Would you find in him a kindred spirit, out of interest?
Yes actually from moment that I first read "The Political Theology of St Paul" I felt strongly that he was a kindred spirit and that only deepened when I read "Occidental Eschatology". It is true that he held this world and humanity to be a lot more fallen than is normal in Rabbinic Judaism but this isn't problematic for me at all, as my own views on this subject would be a lot closer to certain types of Lutheran thinking than to the outright Pelagianism that one finds in Irish Catholicism. Anyway did not Our Lord say: "And he said to them: You are they who justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts; for that which is high to men, is an abomination before God.?"

He had a lot of internal contradictory impulses that he wrestled with through his life but it is from that wrestling that many of insights came from. You seem to be implying that misanthropy was what caused his reservations about Zionism.

He by the way was also a great admirer of Erik Peterson.
 
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#12
You claim you are on the side of Jews, but when a Jewish scholar, who has spent his whole life studying Judaism - as did his father before him, says something that disturbs your Zionist propaganda - a quick Google Search is enough for you to dismiss him and even diagnose insanity on his part. Does that not show even you that you have no interest in the Jewish people at all, or sympathy with them. You are just interested in promoting Zionism. And any Jew that gets in the way will be shredded without mercy in the Zionist meat grinder.
Look if you are seriously interested in St Paul or Carl Schmitt, and I'm interested in both, you are going to come across him. Nothing to do with Palestine or Zionism. However I think it is impossible to deny now the truth of the quote I posted.