The Marxist View of Patriotism and Nationalism

Aesthetician

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I wouldn't be able to give you a very considered answer to that question a chara, only that Fascism does tend to center of the Great Man rather too much. Marx addresses this question in this text, where he says:

But unheroic though bourgeois society is, it nevertheless needed heroism, sacrifice, terror, civilwar, and national wars to bring it into being. And in the austere classical traditions of the Roman Republic the bourgeois gladiators found the ideals and the artforms, the self-deceptions, that they needed to conceal from themselves the bourgeois-limited content of their struggles and to keep their passion on the high plane of great historic tragedy.

But if you are implying that d'Annunzio was somehow limited by bourgeois concepts, I am not sure I can really agree with that.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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But if you are implying that d'Annunzio was somehow limited by bourgeois concepts, I am not sure I can really agree with that.

I don't know very much about d'Annunzio at all. I'm really just saying that Fascism is limited by bourgeois aesthetics. So is Marxism to a great extent, but it has been deburgeoisified to some extent in Asia and Latin America, where the Native aesthetic has a powerful influence.
 

Aesthetician

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I don't know very much about d'Annunzio at all. I'm really just saying that Fascism is limited by bourgeois aesthetics. So is Marxism to a great extent, but it has been deburgeoisified to some extent in Asia and Latin America, where the Native aesthetic has a powerful influence.
The Fasces are a Roman symbol; If Roman aesthetic is bourgeois, then bourgeois aesthetic is just fine. Futurism is neither a bourgeois aesthetic; It is radical. "Politica di Bellezza" is an aesthetic & politic philosophy in which the aesthetic & politic are indistinguishable & in which both the old & new worlds are brought together.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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The Fasces are a Roman symbol; If Roman aesthetic is bourgeois, then bourgeois aesthetic is just fine. Futurism is neither a bourgeois aesthetic; It is radical. "Politica di Bellezza" is an aesthetic & politic philosophy in which the aesthetic & politic are indistinguishable & in which both the old & new worlds are brought together.
Well, the Roman aesthetic certainly wasn't bourgeois, but 20th Century Fascists tended to adopt a bourgeois version of the Roman aesthetic. I would say that Futurism is bourgeois - hyperbourgeois even.
 

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An interesting video that argues that far from being opposed to Nationalism and Patriotism, in most anti-imperialist struggles it's the Communists who lead the Patriotic defense of the nation. And that makes perfect sense. The Patriotic struggles in Russia, China, Korea, Vietnam and many African and Latin American countries were led by the Communists. Indeed, the same can be said of Poland and countries like it. Under Communism, Poland had national pride, a strong army, and a strong economy. Today, Poland is the bitch of the USA and Germany. Of course, Germany is the bitch of the US Régime, but Poland is even further down the food chain, with many of Poland's young women in the brothels of Western Europe and the USA, and Polish men doing menial jobs where ever they can find them.

I was listening to an old recording of an episode of 'Moral maze' on BBC radio 4 last night and the topic under discussion was 'high culture'. One contributor, whose name escapes me, stated that the finest example of 'high culture' in the 20th century was the the Soviet Union. He also remarked that the state made a attempt to spread the culture among the masses. I thought it was an interesting observation.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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I was listening to an old recording of an episode of 'Moral maze' on BBC radio 4 last night and the topic under discussion was 'high culture'. One contributor, whose name escapes me, stated that the finest example of 'high culture' in the 20th century was the the Soviet Union. He also remarked that the state made a attempt to spread the culture among the masses. I thought it was an interesting observation.

Very true a chara. In the Soviet Union, a worker could attend a ballet at the Bolshoi for the price of a couple of beers. Today, it costs over 200 US dollars to attend the same ballet. And the workers did attend the ballet and the opera in the USSR.
 

Aesthetician

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That's a really big question a chara, but in short, it tries to impose the aesthetic of industrial production on life.
Does it not attempt to find, through abstract & unusual shapes, the erotic beauty present in any art that came before it, possibly even surpassing it in that category?
 

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Does it not attempt to find, through abstract & unusual shapes, the erotic beauty present in any art that came before it, possibly even surpassing it in that category?

The abstract and unusual shapes are really mathematical abstractions, closely associated with bourgeois science and industry.
 

Reptilia

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Very true a chara. In the Soviet Union, a worker could attend a ballet at the Bolshoi for the price of a couple of beers. Today, it costs over 200 US dollars to attend the same ballet. And the workers did attend the ballet and the opera in the USSR.
Chomsky says something similar about his relatives who lived in New York in the 40s and 50s. They had little or no education and worked menial jobs, but were all involved in left wing politics. According to Chomsky, they regularly attended Shakespeare plays, operas etc. It's hard to imagine that happening nowadays.
 

Aesthetician

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Chomsky says something similar about his relatives who lived in New York in the 40s and 50s. They had little or no education and worked menial jobs, but were all involved in left wing politics. According to Chomsky, they regularly attended Shakespeare plays, operas etc. It's hard to imagine that happening nowadays.
Chomsky is a haughty member of some makey-uppey group of anarchs. Reminds me of Trotsky. Hate the guy.
 
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