The attack on the older generation has only started. - Pensioners identified as causes of the housing problem!

Florence

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Thank you Olli for that clarification.

I have come accross a number of EU citizens getting a partial jobseeker allowance (means tested) to top up low wages/low income from self employment and sometimes they are also getting a HAP payment to help with the rent. They intend to remain here indefinitely and the payments allow them to plan this way. They feel they are better off than they were in their own countries.

So what you are saying is that these people, if the government had the will, could be asked to leave and/or have their (means tested) benefits stopped providing this happened before they were here for 5 years?

The simplest thing would be to say no means tested benefits to non Irish Citizens who would then have to get better paid work or leave.
 
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An "age tax" should be imposed on the earnings of workers over 40 as well as employers, to tackle the timebomb of caring for older people, a new report warns.

The money generated would have to be ringfenced for a 'New Deal' scheme for the elderly - providing not just nursing home support, but also home care.
The radical proposals are revealed in a new discussion report from Sage Advocacy, which was set up five years ago to promote, protect and defend the rights and dignity of vulnerable adults, older people and patients.

It calls for an additional earmarked social care insurance contribution to be introduced. It would be paid by middle-aged workers and employers, which could be an addition to PRSI or a replacement for the USC.
'New Deal'. More taxes to pay for a system that is falling over as is, the chances this money is going to be saved for any long term planning re care considering what has gone on before is zero. Will there be flights of capital from ireland considering the constant attack on the ethnic irish that is being pushed, obviously the demographics here is that the ethnic irish are the ones that are predominately going to be hit by this tax. Supposedly a lot of money is leaving the UK on the fears that Corbyn is going to get elected, but there is a move towards the corporations and banks being the only ones allowed to own and profit from anything outside of rent seeking.
 

BSA

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Despite the bleating of the Irish 'government' about the pension crisis Ireland should be in a relatively good demographic position in relation to the ratio of contributers to the number of people drawing pension benefits..

We are a young country the EU and OECD metrics tell us.. In fact you'd have to go to a 'developing' country, Turkey!! 'to see a comparable young population figure.. So plenty of working people to top up those famous pots?

No..... Is the answer..

Plenty of people right enough , a 20% & growing rise in the population of an isolated largely rural island with little in the way of industry - no Rhur Valley here...

No western country has ever thrown it's borders open like Ireland has, none not one , and its a disaster. Plenty of illiterate fast breeding low IQ sub Saharan Africans with asylum fairy stories, three generation of unskilled non English speaking migration from Eastern Europe, people from the four corners arriving to be part of the Irish Wild West welfare bonanza. This has been of great benefit to a small gombeen sector but for us, the Irish citizens it's a housing crisis, a collapsing hospital system a a powerless government that is now a spectator in the county they are supposed to govern.

I'm not sure what will happen, the situation won't self correct it's gone too far for that. but I know there is no scum worse than a desperate gombeen wanting a quick fix to their stupidity.. So... expect housing grabs from anyone they think they can con, phony 'carbon taxes', stratospheric rises in all social taxes and charges. Beginning with the elderly...

That is unless we decide we don't want this??
 

Olli Rehn

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Thank you Olli for that clarification.

I have come accross a number of EU citizens getting a partial jobseeker allowance (means tested) to top up low wages/low income from self employment and sometimes they are also getting a HAP payment to help with the rent. They intend to remain here indefinitely and the payments allow them to plan this way. They feel they are better off than they were in their own countries.

So what you are saying is that these people, if the government had the will, could be asked to leave and/or have their (means tested) benefits stopped providing this happened before they were here for 5 years?

The simplest thing would be to say no means tested benefits to non Irish Citizens who would then have to get better paid work or leave.
There is no such thing as a top-up for an income from self-employment. You cannot be self- employed and unemployed at the same time. You are either self employed and get no state money. Or you are unemployed and get state money. What you might think of is the variation where you have a part-time job of say 3 days per week and sign on for the rest of the week. You get the dole for those days you do not work.
However, you are not getting rich that way. There is no way you can do any planning for the future.
Means tested payments are the norm in a variety of other EU countries. Irish people could go to Germany and sign on there. They would get some sort of jobseekers allowance as well. Part of the EU treaties. So a system of means tested payments only for the Irish here is not allowed.
I showed above that anybody who is not able to self-support oneself after a certain time can be asked to leave. This is also the case for those on means-tested part payments.
The story is different for those on non-means tested payments. Those have different rights. You cannot ask them to leave. They paid into the system already and earned certain rights.
I do not think that those folks you mentioned above showed you all their paperwork and explained in detail what payment they are getting.
Or do you work in the DoSP?
 

Florence

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There is no such thing as a top-up for an income from self-employment. You cannot be self- employed and unemployed at the same time. You are either self employed and get no state money. Or you are unemployed and get state money. What you might think of is the variation where you have a part-time job of say 3 days per week and sign on for the rest of the week. You get the dole for those days you do not work.
However, you are not getting rich that way. There is no way you can do any planning for the future.
Means tested payments are the norm in a variety of other EU countries. Irish people could go to Germany and sign on there. They would get some sort of jobseekers allowance as well. Part of the EU treaties. So a system of means tested payments only for the Irish here is not allowed.
I showed above that anybody who is not able to self-support oneself after a certain time can be asked to leave. This is also the case for those on means-tested part payments.
The story is different for those on non-means tested payments. Those have different rights. You cannot ask them to leave. They paid into the system already and earned certain rights.
I do not think that those folks you mentioned above showed you all their paperwork and explained in detail what payment they are getting.
Or do you work in the DoSP?
My information is from a relative who works in this area doing advocacy work. It is a hassle to get any help if you are self employed but in dire straits and not enough money coming in but you don't want to give up trying to make it as a self employed person. The system has no understanding of the self employed. To assess your income they ask for say 3 months payslips! Basically for a struggling self employed person to get any money he has to show his recent income is very low and below the limits considered necessary to survive. For example you might put together the past six months income received and deduct the business expenses in that time. Divide the total by 26 weeks and you have an average weekly income. Depending on what this is, you may get a small amount of money which will be regularly assessed. This would need to be backed up by bank statements and relevant paperwork. My relative has used this system to help people get a small means tested payment.
 

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Despite the bleating of the Irish 'government' about the pension crisis Ireland should be in a relatively good demographic position in relation to the ratio of contributers to the number of people drawing pension benefits..

We are a young country the EU and OECD metrics tell us.. In fact you'd have to go to a 'developing' country, Turkey!! 'to see a comparable young population figure.. So plenty of working people to top up those famous pots?

No..... Is the answer..

Plenty of people right enough , a 20% & growing rise in the population of an isolated largely rural island with little in the way of industry - no Rhur Valley here...

No western country has ever thrown it's borders open like Ireland has, none not one , and its a disaster. Plenty of illiterate fast breeding low IQ sub Saharan Africans with asylum fairy stories, three generation of unskilled non English speaking migration from Eastern Europe, people from the four corners arriving to be part of the Irish Wild West welfare bonanza. This has been of great benefit to a small gombeen sector but for us, the Irish citizens it's a housing crisis, a collapsing hospital system a a powerless government that is now a spectator in the county they are supposed to govern.

I'm not sure what will happen, the situation won't self correct it's gone too far for that. but I know there is no scum worse than a desperate gombeen wanting a quick fix to their stupidity.. So... expect housing grabs from anyone they think they can con, phony 'carbon taxes', stratospheric rises in all social taxes and charges. Beginning with the elderly...

That is unless we decide we don't want this??
I'd give the tourist industry about 10 years tops, and when they all start realising it's not Ireland anymore, and stop coming, the rot will start quickly. And, personally, I can't wait.

I heard a radio bit last week about the vintners association crying out for emigrants to be brought back home to work in their pubs, and/or being incentivised to do so- obviously they're feeling the reality of what it means to be staffed with foreigners, while catering to tourists visiting 'Ireland', and what it will mean down the line.

I was surprised it got on air to be honest, being inadvertently wacist and all- aka, reality based. But it was Westmeath radio, so they probably still have a bit of fight left in them.
 

BSA

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I'd give the tourist industry about 10 years tops, and when they all start realising it's not Ireland anymore, and stop coming, the rot will start quickly. And, personally, I can't wait.

I heard a radio bit last week about the vintners association crying out for emigrants to be brought back home to work in their pubs, and/or being incentivised to do so- obviously they're feeling the reality of what it means to be staffed with foreigners, while catering to tourists visiting 'Ireland', and what it will mean down the line.

I was surprised it got on air to be honest, being inadvertently wacist and all- aka, reality based. But it was Westmeath radio, so they probably still have a bit of fight left in them.
Getting a bit offf topic but...I have a personal experience here ...

Years ago - 10 .....12 .. my wife ran manager a popular bar on the main street of our small town - mostly local but a few tourists on occasion.

One summer evening - shortly before she left - a large group of elderly, tartan hatted, golf trousered American tourists entered cautiously and looked about - my wife welcomed them and laid out the glasses of Guinness [a sure sign of a tourist] and small Paddies - it was a lively evening and the locals were singing along to a ballad CD while waiting for a guy with an accordian to arrive so the session proper could begin.

The tourists ordered a few more glasses and Paddies and began to relax while the told my wife the story - they were a neighborhood group from the Bronx - Irish and Irish connections mostly. They had saved for years for the visit to Ireland and had toured the East coast where many had family connections - it was their last day of a weeks 'vacation', and the only time they were not served by surly Poles or indifferent Russians in halting English. They were very disappointed - a week on a small island to find an authentic Irish experience. Poor value for a lot of saving.

People come to Ireland for what they recognise as our culture ... music, landscape and above all , people - Irish people. They do not come for Africans, middle Eastern 'Asylum Seekers, 'colourful' Roma or any of the vast numbers of people who have nothing to offer us but who who have invited themselves here anyway.

That was 12 years ago...
 

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Getting a bit offf topic but...I have a personal experience here ...

Years ago - 10 .....12 .. my wife ran manager a popular bar on the main street of our small town - mostly local but a few tourists on occasion.

One summer evening - shortly before she left - a large group of elderly, tartan hatted, golf trousered American tourists entered cautiously and looked about - my wife welcomed them and laid out the glasses of Guinness [a sure sign of a tourist] and small Paddies - it was a lively evening and the locals were singing along to a ballad CD while waiting for a guy with an accordian to arrive so the session proper could begin.

The tourists ordered a few more glasses and Paddies and began to relax while the told my wife the story - they were a neighborhood group from the Bronx - Irish and Irish connections mostly. They had saved for years for the visit to Ireland and had toured the East coast where many had family connections - it was their last day of a weeks 'vacation', and the only time they were not served by surly Poles or indifferent Russians in halting English. They were very disappointed - a week on a small island to find an authentic Irish experience. Poor value for a lot of saving.

People come to Ireland for what they recognise as our culture ... music, landscape and above all , people - Irish people. They do not come for Africans, middle Eastern 'Asylum Seekers, 'colourful' Roma or any of the vast numbers of people who have nothing to offer us but who who have invited themselves here anyway.

That was 12 years ago...
Some 10 years ago my friend had people over frim Scotland for a few days and they were heading out for the night.
They had been before.
He asked where they were going and they said to the outskirts of town.
They said they wanted to meet irish people and there were very few in the city centre so they would rather stay away from the city centre
 
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Its an interesting topic, Paris not being paris anymore etc..,
places like Epcot - Wikipedia Disney Land and the pavilions that represent countries as a simulation may become more popular as a replacement for tourism in the future, will cut down on plane travel and costs at least and you can see a simulation of multiple countries at one time, where the simulation is closer to the old rather then the reality of what they are now.

Edit. reminds me of that leprechaun museum in dublin.
 
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ShumanTheHuman

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Back on topic here's a Social Scientist advocating "encouraging" pensioners out of their homes by using punitive taxation
 

Ire-land

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Getting a bit offf topic but...I have a personal experience here ...

Years ago - 10 .....12 .. my wife ran manager a popular bar on the main street of our small town - mostly local but a few tourists on occasion.

One summer evening - shortly before she left - a large group of elderly, tartan hatted, golf trousered American tourists entered cautiously and looked about - my wife welcomed them and laid out the glasses of Guinness [a sure sign of a tourist] and small Paddies - it was a lively evening and the locals were singing along to a ballad CD while waiting for a guy with an accordian to arrive so the session proper could begin.

The tourists ordered a few more glasses and Paddies and began to relax while the told my wife the story - they were a neighborhood group from the Bronx - Irish and Irish connections mostly. They had saved for years for the visit to Ireland and had toured the East coast where many had family connections - it was their last day of a weeks 'vacation', and the only time they were not served by surly Poles or indifferent Russians in halting English. They were very disappointed - a week on a small island to find an authentic Irish experience. Poor value for a lot of saving.

People come to Ireland for what they recognise as our culture ... music, landscape and above all , people - Irish people. They do not come for Africans, middle Eastern 'Asylum Seekers, 'colourful' Roma or any of the vast numbers of people who have nothing to offer us but who who have invited themselves here anyway.

That was 12 years ago...
Unreal to think it was like that then. It makes you wonder what sort of % American tourists make up now, or if they're still coming in the numbers they once did. I could easily see all that stuff not bothering Europeans, or people from anywhere else either, so maybe it wont matter a damn in the long run. But Americans tend to come specifically for the Irish people and to experience them as their ancestors, so I can't see them being impressed.

It's hard to tell anymore walking around Dublin, who's the tourist and who's the 'local', it's such an identity-less kip now, so it's tough to get a gauge on it.
 
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Some 10 years ago my friend had people over frim Scotland for a few days and they were heading out for the night.
They had been before.
He asked where they were going and they said to the outskirts of town.
They said they wanted to meet irish people and there were very few in the city centre so they would rather stay away from the city centre
Strange that. Every time I return to Dublin I am invariably served by Irish people in bars.
 
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