Sufism, Dionysus, and the Love of Wine

Fire2theRain

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The changing image of Sufism in Western eyes is an extremely interesting subject. During the 19 th century and for a lot of the 20 th century Sufism was blamed by Westerners for the decline of the Islamic- certainly forms of Sufism that degenerated played a part in that- however since the 1960s we have seen a complete reversal of that. Sufism though it does exist to a lesser extent among the Shia is basically part of orthodox Sunni Islam- Sufis may have "ecumenical" feelings towards Christians and believing Jews however you will find that the vast majority believe that atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc are headed for the hell fire. A Sufi in London told me that while he believed that the majority of "Eastern" Christians (in that he included groups like the Russians and Greeks) would enter Paradise the destination of the vast majority of Western Christians was the hell fire. He also thought executing people for homosexual acts was perfectly legitimate as long as it was not done on a vigilante basis. What is the armed wing of Hamas called? Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. Who was Izz ad-Din al-Qassam? A major Sufi Saint of the 20 th century. The suicide bombing of the second Intifada which by the way I have no problems with and which was supported by the way by Archbishop Theodosios Hanna was very much a Sufi thing.

Beware of taking things that Sufis have said that were aimed at pious Muslims in order to break the shackles of their egos for some Levantine form of Quakerism. Context is everything- especially when it comes to Sufism.

There are different kinds of sufis. Some are orthodox muslims, some are burned by orthodox muslims.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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There are different kinds of sufis. Some are orthodox muslims, some are burned by orthodox muslims.

I wouldn't call Wahabbists Orthodox Muslims, but there certainly has been a sometimes tense relationship between Sufis and the rest of Islam over the centuries. The Iranian Shia state takes a dim view of Sufism also.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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I wouldn't call Wahabbists Orthodox Muslims, but there certainly has been a sometimes tense relationship between Sufis and the rest of Islam over the centuries. The Iranian Shia state takes a dim view of Sufism also.
Sufis have been beheaded when they have come out with crazy stuff a times- burning at the stake is a Western Christian thing historically and while it is utterly savage there are leading figures in Ireland both in Church and State who I think deserve that treatment in a legal and disciplined manner of course- however I would not say that Sufism has had a tense relationship with Sunni Islam as such over the centuries. One bunch of Sufis did however. The reason that the Islamic Republic of Iran takes a dim view of Sufism is for very good reasons in an Iranian context they associate it with the "Black Shia" (black in this context has nothing to do with skin colour).
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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There are different kinds of sufis. Some are orthodox muslims, some are burned by orthodox muslims.
99 per cent of Sufis are orthodox Muslims. Granted traditional Islam did not have the dogmatic toughness of most forms of Christianity but still. There have been deviant forms of Sufism, there was one group which I am trying to remember the name of which no longer exists which were kind of at least the Western idea of what Sufis are like. The group in Western history most similar to Sufis were the historic Lutheran Pietists who could be pretty wild at times but were still far away liberal sentimentalism, they were very much Christians just as Sufis are very much Muslims. You are probably from a wishy washy Irish Catholic background so the intensity of what it means to actually believe in Revelation could well be lost on you.

The most of Sufi executed for his beliefs was Mansur Al-Hallaj, he was killed basically for the same reasons that Marguerite Porete would be later in France in the 14 th century, essentially out of mutual confusion and wooden-headedness. Read Al-Ghazali's (albeit very nuanced and at times guarded defense of him). Particularly Kurdish devotees of Al-Hallaj by the the way in the contemporary are pretty quick to carry out honour killings.

People talk about "Catholic guilt"- however such people, especially if they have been raised in contemporary Ireland, would be just stunned and flabbergasted by certain types of "Sufi guilt" which can reach Manichean proportions.
 

Fire2theRain

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99 per cent of Sufis are orthodox Muslims. Granted traditional Islam did not have the dogmatic toughness of most forms of Christianity but still. There have been deviant forms of Sufism, there was one group which I am trying to remember the name of which no longer exists which were kind of at least the Western idea of what Sufis are like. The group in Western history most similar to Sufis were the historic Lutheran Pietists who could be pretty wild at times but were still far away liberal sentimentalism, they were very much Christians just as Sufis are very much Muslims. You are probably from a wishy washy Irish Catholic background so the intensity of what it means to actually believe in Revelation could well be lost on you.

The most of Sufi executed for his beliefs was Mansur Al-Hallaj, he was killed basically for the same reasons that Marguerite Porete would be later in France in the 14 th century, essentially out of mutual confusion and wooden-headedness. Read Al-Ghazali's (albeit very nuanced and at times guarded defense of him). Particularly Kurdish devotees of Al-Hallaj by the the way in the contemporary are pretty quick to carry out honour killings.

People talk about "Catholic guilt"- however such people, especially if they have been raised in contemporary Ireland, would be just stunned and flabbergasted by certain types of "Sufi guilt" which can reach Manichean proportions.

That's pretty condescending. Look up Chishti sufis. Very joyous and welcoming toward those of other faiths.
 
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