St John Cassian on the interconnection between Pelagianism and Nestorianism.

Tadhg Gaelach

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I tried to contact the design department in Heaven but no reply yet.
It seems sraightford enough Adam had free choice and made a bad call.
Our freedom from concupiscence was then lost.
You can’t blame the designer if the pilot deliberately crashes the plane taking everybody with him.

If you design a car that can move forward and reverse - and you tell me never to use the reverse - and I do use the reverse - I haven't changed the car's design. I've just disobeyed you - which your design allowed me to do.
 

The Field Marshal

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If you design a car that can move forward and reverse - and you tell me never to use the reverse - and I do use the reverse - I haven't changed the car's design. I've just disobeyed you - which your design allowed me to do.
Yes.
You were given the design freedom to disobey.
You were also warned of the consequences.
It is not possible to escape those consequences that you freely brought on your own head,
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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The teaching of all churches that accept the Council of Ephesus is that in the Incarnate Christ is a single hypostasis, God and man at once. That doctrine is known as the Hypostatic union.

You sought on another thread to transfer the Hypostatic Union to the relationship between the Three Persons of the Trinity.
That is not what it means.

It is my view that Christ has a fully human personality and also that as a God there is also an element of Divine Personality.

You for some strange reason seem to have sought to deny that Christ has any personality.
Or perhaps I have misunderstood you ?
The Hypostatis/Personhood of Our Lord Jesus Christ existed Before the Ages of Ages as Second Person of the Holy Trinity. He took on human nature from the Most Pure Virgin, however Christ is not two Persons, He took on a human nature, thus making His one Personhood/Hypostatis which has always existed and never once did not exist both human and Divine. However He did not take on another human personality or hypostatis from the Virgin Mary that magically fused with his Pre-Eternal Hypostatis creating a an entirely new category of being that is neither human or Divine which is something you seem to believe. The Council of Ephesus was clarified at the Fourth and Fifth Ecumenical Councils.
 

The Field Marshal

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The Hypostatis/Personhood of Our Lord Jesus Christ existed Before the Ages of Ages as Second Person of the Holy Trinity. He took on human nature from the Most Pure Virgin, however Christ is not two Persons, He took on a human nature, thus making His one Personhood/Hypostatis which has always existed and never once did not exist both human and Divine. However He did not take on another human personality or hypostatis from the Virgin Mary that magically fused with his Pre-Eternal Hypostatis creating a an entirely new category of being that is neither human or Divine which is something you seem to believe. The Council of Ephesus was clarified at the Fourth and Fifth Ecumenical Councils.
Let us try and clarify this matter?

[1]The Second Person of the Holy Trinity pre-existed for all time as pure spirit.
Insofar as humans can understand personhood, that second person possessed a personality.
[2] At a moment in time that 2nd person incarnated in the BVM and became man.
Mary then gave birth to that incarnated God whom we now call Jesus Christ.
[3] Christ has two natures, one human and one divine, that do not exist side by side
(Nestorianism) but in a close and intimate Union designated under the term “Christological Perichoresis “adumbrated by St Gregory Nazianzus.
(4) After the Hypostatic Union each of the two nature’s of Christ continue unimpaired, UN transformed and unmixed with each other,
This was defined DeFide at the 4thGeneral Council of Chalcedon in 451.
(5) Each of the two natures of Christ possess its own natural will and its own natural mode of operation all this defined at 6th General Council of Constantinople 680 to 681.

From all of this it is clear Christ possesses a human will that is free.
Therefore Christ also possess a human personality.

You have denied this and in so doing are in error concerning the true nature of Christ..
Christ has two natures one human and one divine.
 

The Field Marshal

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If you design a car that can move forward and reverse - and you tell me never to use the reverse - and I do use the reverse - I haven't changed the car's design. I've just disobeyed you - which your design allowed me to do.
Yes.
And the reason I told you never to reverse is that it would damage your brain from an inevitable car crash.
You reversed and damaged your brain.
Not my fault, not my designs fault .
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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Let us try and clarify this matter?

[1]The Second Person of the Holy Trinity pre-existed for all time as pure spirit.
Insofar as humans can understand personhood, that second person possessed a personality.
[2] At a moment in time that 2nd person incarnated in the BVM and became man.
Mary then gave birth to that incarnated God whom we now call Jesus Christ.
[3] Christ has two natures, one human and one divine, that do not exist side by side
(Nestorianism) but in a close and intimate Union designated under the term “Christological Perichoresis “adumbrated by St Gregory Nazianzus.
(4) After the Hypostatic Union each of the two nature’s of Christ continue unimpaired, UN transformed and unmixed with each other,
This was defined DeFide at the 4thGeneral Council of Chalcedon in 451.
(5) Each of the two natures of Christ possess its own natural will and its own natural mode of operation all this defined at 6th General Council of Constantinople 680 to 681.

From all of this it is clear Christ possesses a human will that is free.
Therefore Christ also possess a human personality.

You have denied this and in so doing are in error concerning the true nature of Christ..
Christ has two natures one human and one divine.
You are confusing hypostatis with nature. Christ's human nature has for it's hypostatis did Uncreated Word of God. Therefore He does not possess a human personality as such. His Personality is that of the Word Incarnate.
 

The Field Marshal

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You are confusing hypostatis with nature. Christ's human nature has for it's hypostatis did Uncreated Word of God. Therefore He does not possess a human personality as such. His Personality is that of the Word Incarnate.
Do you accept that Christ has two separate natures?
One human and one divine.

Once again you err in denying Christ a human personality.
All humans have personality.

To deny that to Christ as you repeatedly do is to diminish the humanity of Christ and make him less than a perfect man.

What is the devotion to the Sacred heart of Jesus but an appeal to the basic human personality?
 

The Field Marshal

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You are confusing hypostatis with nature. Christ's human nature has for it's hypostatis did Uncreated Word of God. Therefore He does not possess a human personality as such. His Personality is that of the Word Incarnate.
I am not confusing anything.
Once more you deny the humanity of Christ.
That is what you do every time you say he has no “human “personality.

A human being without a personality is no longer human.
You dehumanize Christ.

You are saying Christ is not like a human person and has no human personality.

Christ during his life on earth exhibited anger, sorrow and other emotions associated with the human personality.
You are denying all this.
 
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The Field Marshal

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You are confusing hypostatis with nature. Christ's human nature has for it's hypostatis did Uncreated Word of God. Therefore He does not possess a human personality as such. His Personality is that of the Word Incarnate.
Christ assumed not only a body but also a rational soul.
This is a core de fide teaching of the RCC.

Arianism and Appollinariasm were the heresies that denied this .
In asserting that Christ did not have a human personality , which is a component of the rational soul, I argue that you are skirting close to those heretical positions.

In 451 the Council of Chalcedon defined the following concerning Christ’s humanity “He is perfect...according to humanity..a true man, consisting of a rational soul and a body...He is identical in substance with us according to his humanity.”

Identical in substance with us according to his humanity means that Christ had a human personality.

That comes from the council of Chalcedon.
 
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