St John Cassian on the interconnection between Pelagianism and Nestorianism.

SwordOfStCatherine

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Two of the really major problems in contemporary Irish Catholicism are Pelagainism (basically a denial of the fact that human nature is fallen) and Nestorianism (the idea essentially that Our Lord Jesus Christ is a human person as well as a Divine Personhood). While tragically Irish Protestants outside of Theology nerds tend also to be Nestorian they are at least outside of maybe in the Southern Church of Ireland not Pelagian and the rampant Pelagianism of so many Irish Catholics weakens greatly their witness to Protestants (you would think that converting Ulster Protestants to Catholicism would be seen as a political necesscity, but alas not). Both positions also weaken entering into intellectual combat with Islam which the vast majority of the Church does not seem interested in preparing itself for. So finding this passage of St John Cassian (who basically supplied the foundation of Monasticism in Latin Christendom) linking together Pelagianism and Nestorianism I found extremely interesting.

http://classicalchristianity.com/2012/03/26/nestorianism-equals-pelagianism/

"You say then that Christ was born a mere man. But certainly this was asserted by that wicked heresy of Pelagius, as we clearly showed in the first book; viz., that Christ was born a mere man. You add besides, that Jesus Christ the Lord of all should be termed a form that received God (Θεοδόχος), i.e., not God, but the receiver of God, so that your view is that He is to be honoured not for His own sake because He is God, but because He receives God into Himself. But clearly this also was asserted by that heresy of which I spoke before; viz., that Christ was not to be worshipped for His own sake because He was God, but because owing to His good and pious actions He won this; viz., to have God dwelling in Him. You see then that you are belching out the poison of Pelagianism, and hissing with the very spirit of Pelagianism. Whence it comes that you seem rather to have been already judged, than to have now to undergo judgment, for since your error is one and the same, you must be believed to fall under the same condemnation: not to mention for the present that you compare the Lord to a statue of the Emperor, and break out into such wicked and blasphemous impieties that you seem in this madness of yours to surpass even Pelagius himself, who surpassed almost every one else in impiety. (On the Incarnation Bk. 5.2)".
 

The Field Marshal

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I must take issue here.
Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine.

That is the teaching of thenRCC.

Nestorius sought to question the divine nature of Christ and also rejected Mary as Theotokos.
Your description of Nestorianism above is incorrect.

The teaching of all churches that accept the Council of Ephesus is that in the Incarnate Christ is a single hypostasis, God and man at once. That doctrine is known as the Hypostatic union.

You sought on another thread to transfer the Hypostatic Union to the relationship between the Three Persons of the Trinity.
That is not what it means.

It is my view that Christ has a fully human personality and also that as a God there is also an element of Divine Personality.

You for some strange reason seem to have sought to deny that Christ has any personality.
Or perhaps I have misunderstood you ?
 
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The Field Marshal

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I would agree that within all Catholicism, not merely the Irish version , there has been an intellectual downgrading of Original Sin or the Fall , because of the failure to articulate a robust theology capable of adequately reconciling the scientific theory of evolution.
)(If you want to call that Pelagianism it’s a rather old fashioned term and one used frequently (incorrectly) by the ignorant and poorly educated antipope Francis)
 
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Tadhg Gaelach

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I would agree that within all Catholicism, not merely the Irish version , there has been an intellectual downgrading of Original Sin or the Fall , because of the failure to articulate a robust theology capable of adequately reconciling the scientific theory of evolution.
)(If you want to call that Pelagianism it’s a rather old fashioned term and one used frequently by the ignorant and poorly educated antipope Francis)

I wouldn't say that humans are fallen or defective beings. We have free will, and thus can do evil or good. I find that the average person would much rather do good than evil, and really does much more good than evil. The small elites who have driven our world into the sewer clearly relish evil and hate good, but they are not really sane in my opinion - sociopaths most of them.
 

The Field Marshal

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I wouldn't say that humans are fallen or defective beings. We have free will, and thus can do evil or good. I find that the average person would much rather do good than evil, and really does much more good than evil. The small elites who have driven our world into the sewer clearly relish evil and hate good, but they are not really sane in my opinion - sociopaths most of them.
We all have failings and faults.
The reason for this is Original Sin and every human born, bar the Blessed Virgin Mary and her Son Jesus, is affected by it.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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We all have failings and faults.
The reason for this is Original Sin and every human born, bar the Blessed Virgin Mary and her Son Jesus, is affected by it.

Eve was vulnerable to temptation before she ate the apple. Does that not mean she was already fallen? After all, Jesus said that a man who commits adultery in his mind has already committed adultery.
 

The Field Marshal

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Eve was vulnerable to temptation before she ate the apple. Does that not mean she was already fallen? After all, Jesus said that a man who commits adultery in his mind has already committed adultery.
Being vulnerable to temptation is not a weakness to the obedient.
Eve and Adam were informed of the consequences of disobedience yet they went ahead.
Their real offence was one of pure free disobedience to a specific command.

Their knowledge and closeness to God was exceedingly great hence the offence was not trivial.
You may have wondered at the very great ages attributed to the personalities in Genesis.
That is because of their closeness to Adam and Eve whose corporeal bodies were designed to last forever.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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Being vulnerable to temptation is not a weakness to the obedient.
Eve and Adam were informed of the consequences of disobedience yet they went ahead.
Their real offence was one of pure free disobedience to a specific command.

Their knowledge and closeness to God was exceedingly great hence the offence was not trivial.
You may have wondered at the very great ages attributed to the personalities in Genesis.
That is because of their closeness to Adam and Eve whose corporeal bodies were designed to last forever.
God created them with the ability to sin - subject to temptation. I'd hardly call that perfect. God is not subject to temptation - He is perfect.
 

The Field Marshal

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God created them with the ability to sin - subject to temptation. I'd hardly call that perfect. God is not subject to temptation - He is perfect.
God created humans free.
That means free to reject or to love God.
You can’t be free if you can not reject God.

If humans as first created were unable to sin as in rejecting God then they were not fully free.

This design of humans by God was indeed perfect but Adam and Eve destroyed it .
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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God created humans free.
That means free to reject or to love God.
You can’t be free if you can not reject God.

If humans as first created were unable to sin as in rejecting God then they were not fully free.

This design of humans by God was indeed perfect but Adam and Eve destroyed it .
What did they do to change the design? The design was made to allow sin to happen.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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I would agree that within all Catholicism, not merely the Irish version , there has been an intellectual downgrading of Original Sin or the Fall , because of the failure to articulate a robust theology capable of adequately reconciling the scientific theory of evolution.
)(If you want to call that Pelagianism it’s a rather old fashioned term and one used frequently (incorrectly) by the ignorant and poorly educated antipope Francis)
He totally abuses the term in the way he uses it which I find incredibly annoying. It seems to be a common Jesuit trait. I think this concept that the Jesuits are all super intelligent is a myth. Cruimh on Politics.ie was a huge fan of the Jesuits which was very telling for me.
 

The Field Marshal

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What did they do to change the design? The design was made to allow sin to happen.
I tried to contact the design department in Heaven but no reply yet.
It seems sraightford enough Adam had free choice and made a bad call.
Our freedom from concupiscence was then lost.
You can’t blame the designer if the pilot deliberately crashes the plane taking everybody with him.
 
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