Rudolf Hess - why was he held in Captivity - 1941-1987 for so long?

Black Azrael

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Overy is not a bad historian however but he does not always get it right
OK: you've rubbished Overy and Messenger (and a fair number of other historians). In exchange, you've offered a highly-qualified wikipedia 'estimate'.

Please identify a few more 'historical works' which are not 'shoddy'. Meanwhile, please stop traducing the Poles (based on no quoted evidence) for being proud nationalists.
 

The Field Marshal

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OK: you've rubbished Overy and Messenger (and a fair number of other historians). In exchange, you've offered a highly-qualified wikipedia 'estimate'.

Please identify a few more 'historical works' which are not 'shoddy'. Meanwhile, please stop traducing the Poles (based on no quoted evidence) for being proud nationalists.
I can give you a list but it will take some time.
I have not rubbished overy merely questioned some of his figures that you quote.
Perhaps you got them wrong.
Nor have I rubbished other historians as you allege.
You are the poster bitching about actual figures and numbers in an army figures which differ substantially anyway depending on what source you select.

I am pointing out the serious foreign policy defects operated by the Poles in the months leading to WW2.
These defects are attributed by all serious historians to Polish pride and arrogence bordering on lunacy considering what were in effect very reasonable and genuine German grievences brought about by the universlaly recognised unjust and vindicitve versailles Treaty.

So grow up and stop behaving like a third rate school teacher.
 

The Field Marshal

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Please identify a few more 'historical works' which are not 'shoddy'.
The definitive account of 1939 Polish German relations is contained in "The Making of the Second world war" Sidney Aster Published 1973 Andre Deutsch.
It supports the contentions I have made concerning unreasonable Polish intransigeance in the face of legitimate German grievences.

For Hess
read Hess The British Conspiracy by John harris &Mj Troy 1999.
For Hitler John Lukacs The Hitler of History has yet to be equalled.
 

Black Azrael

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The definitive account of 1939 Polish German relations is contained in "The Making of the Second world war" Sidney Aster Published 1973 Andre Deutsch.
It supports the contentions I have made concerning unreasonable Polish intransigeance in the face of legitimate German grievences.

For Hess
read Hess The British Conspiracy by John harris &Mj Troy 1999.
For Hitler John Lukacs The Hitler of History has yet to be equalled.
Three somewhat 'conservative' (not to say, obscure) sources. Whatever Aster was, nearly half-a-century gone, he (like no single historian) is no longer 'definitive'. Harris & Trow (twenty years gone) were being deliberately revisionist, certainly highly speculative, even catch-penny. Lukacs (again twenty years out-of-date — and Hitlerian scholarship has moved too fast since the opening of east European and Soviet vaults) was a remarkable writer and teacher at (minor) US colleges, who spread himself very thin: of the 100+ biographies of Hitler, his is not the ne-plus-ultra.

Hitler's Germany was indeed fired with 'legitimate grievances', each of which had to be calmed at others' expense. And, no, I don't feel that a small, young nation is 'unreasonable' in being 'intransigent' opposing a mightier neighbour — or is that a trifle parochial?

As a footnote: what's wrong with your spell-check? Or the editing review?
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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Three somewhat 'conservative' (not to say, obscure) sources. Whatever Aster was, nearly half-a-century gone, he (like no single historian) is no longer 'definitive'. Harris & Trow (twenty years gone) were being deliberately revisionist, certainly highly speculative, even catch-penny. Lukacs (again twenty years out-of-date — and Hitlerian scholarship has moved too fast since the opening of east European and Soviet vaults) was a remarkable writer and teacher at (minor) US colleges, who spread himself very thin: of the 100+ biographies of Hitler, his is not the ne-plus-ultra.

Hitler's Germany was indeed fired with 'legitimate grievances', each of which had to be calmed at others' expense. And, no, I don't feel that a small, young nation is 'unreasonable' in being 'intransigent' opposing a mightier neighbour — or is that a trifle parochial?

As a footnote: what's wrong with your spell-check? Or the editing review?

Why do you say Poland was a small neighbour? Since the end of WW1, Poland had waged war on the Soviet Union, had threatened Germany with war, and had joined with Hitler in annexing part of Czechoslovakia. Hardly an innocent.
 

The Field Marshal

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Three somewhat 'conservative' (not to say, obscure) sources.
Whatever Aster was, nearly half-a-century gone, he (like no single historian) is no longer 'definitive'. Harris & Trow (twenty years gone) were being deliberately revisionist, certainly highly speculative, even catch-penny. Lukacs (again twenty years out-of-date — and Hitlerian scholarship has moved too fast since the opening of east European and Soviet vaults) was a remarkable writer and teacher at (minor) US colleges, who spread himself very thin: of the 100+ biographies of Hitler, his is not the ne-plus-ultra.
My sources are neither obscure or conservative all being highly regarded save Harris and Trow.

You have not provided a source on par with Aster. or Lukacs.
Afaic Lukacs is the ne-plus-ultra on Hitler.
If you know something superior please list.

Hitler's Germany was indeed fired with 'legitimate grievances', each of which had to be calmed at others' expense. And, no, I don't feel that a small, young nation is 'unreasonable' in being 'intransigent' opposing a mightier neighbour — or is that a trifle parochial?
There is a total lack of objectivity in your above assertions

As a footnote: what's wrong with your spell-check? Or the editing review?
I am posting from a small handheld device where it is awkward to implement the minor corrections you complain of.
 
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Black Azrael

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Why do you say Poland was a small neighbour? Since the end of WW1, Poland had waged war on the Soviet Union, had threatened Germany with war, and had joined with Hitler in annexing part of Czechoslovakia. Hardly an innocent.
Please revisit post #107:
I'm no defender of the Piłsudski quasi-dictatorship
Nor that Piłsudski has been, and continues to be adulated by the Polish Right. Europe: we have a problem ...

Poland, re-invented at Versailles, was uncomfortably spooned by Soviet Russia and (after 1933) Nazi Germany.

For a total downer of a read, try Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands, with a second course of Black Earth. Neither is specifically a history of Poland — you'd be ploughing through two volumes of Norman Davies for that, and life's too short — but Snyder makes one appreciate the context.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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The British guarantee to Poland ensured the Poles resisted the very reasonable requests of the Germans to resolve the issue of Danzig and the status of Germans living in the territories confiscated from Germany after WW1.

Prior to that guarantee progress had been made but once the Poles got Britain’s backing they told the Germans go take a hike.
The il treatment of German nationals living in Poland intensified and Germany’s very legitimate grievances over Danzig and the Polish corridor were thenceforth ignored.

The Poles had a larger army than the Germans at the time and smugly thought they would repulse any military action.

Hence Britain’s entirely superfluous and unenforceable guarantee was nothing but a sly cassus belli to instigate international conflict culminating in World War.
Bull$hit.
 

The Field Marshal

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Bull$hit.
The 1939 German General Staff estimation of the numbers capable of mobilisation in the Polish army was somewhat higher than what could be mobilised in Germany.
That is my recollection of my study some years ago on the matter.
If those officers were wrong it is not my fault.
 
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