Remembering Michael Collins who died for Ireland on this Day 96 Years ago

page61

PI Member
Joined
May 25, 2018
Messages
1,388
Likes
1,277
Location
Eire
Page 61, your geography is not great , the pub was far away from Woodfield.
My geography is grand and ive walked the area many times. Collins house woodfield, The 4 Alls and Longs are all in the same area just outside Clonakilty and not far from Mbeal Na Mblath .


"Not far from Galley Head, the promontory that separates the bays of Clonakilty and Rosscarbery, lies the straggle of cottages and farmhouses at the crossroads known as Sam’s Cross (afrer a notorious highwayman, Sam Wallace). Near this hamlet, nestling in the hills midway between the two market towns, is the tiny farm of Woodfield, ninety acres in extent, which had been rented by the Collins family for generations.

Four Alls Tavern at Sams Cross

The Four Alls Tavern

At the crossroads itself stands the Four Alls tavern which, for many years, was kept by Jeremiah Collins (and is today run by his grandson, Maurice) and still has its curious signboard inscribed ‘I Rule All, I Fight for All, I Pray for All, but I Pay for All’, captions to pictures of a king, a pikeman a priest and a farmer respectively. In a cottage across the road was born Mary Anne O’ Brien in 1855. She was scarcely out of her teens when she married one of the Collins brothers who tenanted Woodfield.

Woodfield was not untypical of the farms in this part of Ireland, with its small, stony fields on the long slope of a windswept hillside. Subdivision over the centuries had reduced it by the early-nineteenth century to a few scattered acres providing little more than subsistence farming. It was occupied by four brothers, Maurice, Thomas, Patrick and Michael John Collins. They could not afford to marry, and for years they struggled, four ageing bachelors, to make a go of the farm
."
 

The Field Marshal

PI Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
4,844
Likes
4,164
Collins was without doubt a vital cog in the organizational aspects of running a war and counter intelligence. He would have made a great civil servent .
I do think though that the cult of collins has grown since the publication of TP coogans excellent biography (and of course the film later)
It is always worth remembering that Collins was part of a machine and had so many swirling around him that were often and are often overlooked, he was not a one man band but he did have his fingers in many pies.
A large chunk of my grandparents on both sided took part in the rising and civil war . They all went anti Treaty except my grandfather who didnt take part, by this stage he had been to prison 4 times . All of them (and there are over 10 of them ) mention Collins at some point in the military history archives . The do so, not in a worshiping way but in a practical way . There is no denying he was in his element running the organizational side.

Collins and the treaty is another deal altogether.. I think he caused the civil war by signing it , but yet they blamed DEv for walking out . It was an imoportant thing to many that they did not take an oath to a foreign power which had culled off most of Irelands leaders.. Jim Maher has an excellent book on it called The Oath is dead and gone .

The Anglo Irish treaty was signed by about 6 people all delegated to do so by Dáil Éireann.

That treaty was then democratically ratified by a majority in Dáil Éireann.
And then ratified again by a large majority of voters in the 1922 general election.

It is absurd to blame the treaty signatories for the civil war.

That war was caused directly by the minority anti treaty party and their military supporters all led by DeValera who resisted it by force of arms.

There is no other possible construction on that historical reality.
 

Myles O'Reilly

Top Bloke
Donator
PI Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
8,945
Likes
9,214
Location
Ireland
Sounds like you were in the room......... Yr an Anti-Irish Troll trying to diminish what Collins achieved by attacking his personal character. Pretty obvious.
Stan is a disgrace to this entire Site Miss.
 

page61

PI Member
Joined
May 25, 2018
Messages
1,388
Likes
1,277
Location
Eire
The Anglo Irish treaty was signed by about 6 people all delegated to do so by Dáil Éireann.

That treaty was then democratically ratified by a majority in Dáil Éireann.
And then ratified again by a large majority of voters in the 1922 general election.

It is absurd to blame the treaty signatories for the civil war.

That war was caused directly by the minority anti treaty party and their military supporters all led by DeValera who resisted it by force of arms.

There is no other possible construction on that historical reality.
It is well known that the 6 who did so were pressured into it . They were told by Dublin not to sign it but to bring it back for discussion. Collins and Griffith persuaded Duffy, Duggan and Barton to sign it . Childers was the secretary and was to have great aspersion cast over his name , Griffith rebuked him in the Dail as an Englishman..and later he was executed. Incidentally Barton was Childers Double first Cousin.

Duffy said ...

I do not love this treaty now any more than I loved it when I signed it, that I do not think that...is an adequate motive for rejection to point out that some of us signed the Treaty under duress, not to say that this treaty will not lead to permanent peace. It is necessary before you reject the Treaty to go further than that and to produce to the people of Ireland a rational alternative. My heart is with those who are against the Treaty, but my reason is against them, because I can see no rational alternative.[4]

Remember when they signed the Treaty ,there was no minority /majority.



If they had of insisted on bringing it back to Dublin ,there may not have been a civi war.

The Civil war split was designed by the british and signed by Collins and co ...
 
Last edited:

The Field Marshal

PI Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
4,844
Likes
4,164
It is well known that the 6 who did so were pressured into it . They were told by Dublin not to sign it but to bring it back for discussion. Collins and Griffith persuaded Duffy, Duggan and Barton to sign it . Childers was the secretary and was to have great aspersion cast over his name , Griffith rebuked him in the Dail as an Englishman..and later he was executed. Incidentally Barton was Childers Double first Cousin , he retired from politics in 1923.

Duffy said ...

I do not love this treaty now any more than I loved it when I signed it, that I do not think that...is an adequate motive for rejection to point out that some of us signed the Treaty under duress, not to say that this treaty will not lead to permanent peace. It is necessary before you reject the Treaty to go further than that and to produce to the people of Ireland a rational alternative. My heart is with those who are against the Treaty, but my reason is against them, because I can see no rational alternative.[4]

Remember when they signed the Treaty ,there was no minority /majority.

If they had of insisted on bringing it back to Dublin ,there may not have been a civi war.

The Civil war split was designed by the british and signed by Collins and co ...
Those above are but lame excuses to shift blame.
All peace treaty’s are signed under duress of one kind or another.

Blaming the British for the Irish Civil War is an utter cop out.

The direct responsibility for the violence rests on those anti treaty forces who forcefully resisted the democratic will of Dáil Éireann in its treaty vote and then the democratic will of the Irish electorate who returned a large majority of protreaty candidates in the 1922 general election.

The British may have indeed connived at fomenting trouble before/after the treaty was passed and they were helped in large measure by Eamonn DeValera and his deluded followers.


This fact must be acknowledged.
Churchill is reported as sarcastically saying “They will get it (Ireland) but they will ruin it.”

He was very nearly right and it was Collins and the first Free State govt who ensured DeValera and his wrecking crew did not get their way .
 
Last edited:

page61

PI Member
Joined
May 25, 2018
Messages
1,388
Likes
1,277
Location
Eire
Those above are but lame excuses to shift blame.
All peace treaty’s are signed under duress of one kind or another.

Blaming the British for the Irish Civil War is an utter cop out.

The direct responsibility for the violence rests on those anti treaty forces who forcefully resisted the democratic will of Dáil Éireann in its treaty vote and then the democratic will of the Irish electorate who returned a large majority of protreaty candidates in the 1922 general election.

The British may have indeed connived at fomenting trouble before/after the treaty was passed and they were helped in large measure by Eamonn DeValera and his deluded followers.


This fact must be acknowledged.
Churchill is reported as sarcastically saying “They will get it (Ireland) but they will ruin it.”

He was very nearly right and it was Collins and the first Free State govt who ensured DeValera and his wrecking crew did not get their way .
I would disagree strongly as The old chestnut of divide and conquer is a staple of british withdrawal and has been used many a time by them..agitate one side ,offer something with a small majority that will result in civil war. To deny that this was not engineered to happen in such a way is daft.

The direct responsibility for civil war was Collins signing the treaty after been specifically told not to ,then the british guns fired on the four courts. The "Freestate" army was well bolstered up with British soldiers. who very very quickly made their way out of one uniform and into another.

The Collins- Dev pact which proceeded the 1922 election was based on forming a coalition after the election..Churchill was opposed to this..Why ?..It interfered with the divide and conquer policy. For some reason churchill seemed to be able to bully collins.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
88
Likes
62
I am against Colonialism as some cultural end goal, but what exactly did this man replace it with? Vulgar, unorganized, street violence, a plebeian religion of charlatanic manipulation, a system of tarmac, dysgenics, and quasi communism. A country of bogus rebellion, cultural barbarism, and immorality, where you cannot say anything profound, lest the Fenian mob deem it too counter productive. Mere mechanical propulsion.
 

The Field Marshal

PI Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
4,844
Likes
4,164
I would disagree strongly as The old chestnut of divide and conquer is a staple of british withdrawal and has been used many a time by them..agitate one side ,offer something with a small majority that will result in civil war. To deny that this was not engineered to happen in such a way is daft.

The direct responsibility for civil war was Collins signing the treaty after been specifically told not to ,then the british guns fired on the four courts. The "Freestate" army was well bolstered up with British soldiers. who very very quickly made their way out of one uniform and into another.

The Collins- Dev pact which proceeded the 1922 election was based on forming a coalition after the election..Churchill was opposed to this..Why ?..It interfered with the divide and conquer policy. For some reason churchill seemed to be able to bully collins.
Colin’s was never ordered not to sign the treaty.
They were plenipotentiaries.
Ie delegates with full powers to make an agreement.
“Plenum “and “potens ” are the Latin roots of plenipotentiary and mean “ full “ and “power “ respectively.

That means full authority to negotiate sign an agreement .

If the British strategy was as you allege then it succeeded brilliantly only because DeValera supported it.
(His subterfuge that the treaty was meant to be reviewed by the cabinet is not sustainable in view of the very specific powers accorded by that cabinet to the Irish plenipotentiary delegates to London.)

There is no escaping the bald fact that the Irish Civil War was fought and instigated by political and military forces composed of Irishmen and women opposed to the preponderant democratic wishes of the Irish electorate.

If the British did connive at that , what then does it say about these Irish people who fell for it?

There is no escape route or excuse for what DeValera and his followers did to the Irish people during the avoidable civil war.
They alone inflicted war on their fellow countrymen and women in direct violation of the democratic decision of Dáil Éireann and in direct violation of the will of the people as expressed through a large majority of electors in 1922.

Shame on them.
They had no excuse.
 

The Field Marshal

PI Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
4,844
Likes
4,164
I am against Colonialism as some cultural end goal, but what exactly did this man replace it with? Vulgar, unorganized, street violence, a plebeian religion of charlatanic manipulation, a system of tarmac, dysgenics, and quasi communism. A country of bogus rebellion, cultural barbarism, and immorality, where you cannot say anything profound, lest the Fenian mob deem it too counter productive. Mere mechanical propulsion.
Since you feel unable to say anything profound in Ireland perhaps that is because you have nothing profound to offer other than run of the mill Brit tabloid anti Irish propaganda.
 
Top Bottom