Remembering Michael Collins who died for Ireland on this Day 96 Years ago

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Collins was without doubt a vital cog in the organizational aspects of running a war and counter intelligence. He would have made a great civil servent .
I do think though that the cult of collins has grown since the publication of TP coogans excellent biography (and of course the film later)
It is always worth remembering that Collins was part of a machine and had so many swirling around him that were often and are often overlooked, he was not a one man band but he did have his fingers in many pies.
A large chunk of my grandparents on both sided took part in the rising and civil war . They all went anti Treaty except my grandfather who didnt take part, by this stage he had been to prison 4 times . All of them (and there are over 10 of them ) mention Collins at some point in the military history archives . The do so, not in a worshiping way but in a practical way . There is no denying he was in his element running the organizational side.

Collins and the treaty is another deal altogether.. I think he caused the civil war by signing it , but yet they blamed DEv for walking out . It was an imoportant thing to many that they did not take an oath to a foreign power which had culled off most of Irelands leaders.. Jim Maher has an excellent book on it called The Oath is dead and gone .

 

Rosa Luxombourg

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He was such a superb military organiser that he choose to stop in a valley and be shot from up on the hill when Emmet Dalton had ordered the driver to "drive on and drive like hell".
 

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He was such a superb military organiser that he choose to stop in a valley and be shot from up on the hill when Emmet Dalton had ordered the driver to "drive on and drive like hell".
Not one of his better moves ..nor was getting out from behind the cover of the armoured car while wearing his generals hat etc.
 

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Collins specialty was intelligence yet he didn't knew that the pub they stopped at was Irregular.
The word is anti treaty ,(irrigular was used by the free stater as a derogatory term) .The pub was near his family home woodfield so of course he knew who owned it and who was there
 

Talk Back

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The correct words to use are 'Irish Republican Army', or 'Óglaigh na hÉireann' .

As I posted in the Irish Civil War thread - "Irregulars" (Piaras Béaslaí black propaganda) is a derogatory word used by the usurper Free State to denigrate the lawful and legitimate army of the Irish Republic, the Irish Republican Army - and is still used by Free State supporters to this day.

The historical fact is that the Irish Republican Army were the lawful and legitimate army of the Irish Republic. As such, the Irish Republican Army had every right to take up positions in buildings around Dublin to defend the Irish Republic - including the Four Courts. In fact it was their duty - they took an Oath of Allegiance (as did Dáil Éireann) to the Irish Republic.

The oath to the Irish Republic:- “ I, A.B., do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I do not and shall not yield a voluntary support to any pretended Government ('Southern Ireland' provisional government), authority or power within Ireland hostile and inimical thereto, and I do further swear (or affirm) that to the best of my knowledge and ability I will support and defend the Irish Republic and the Government of the Irish Republic, which is Dáil Eireann, against all enemies, foreign (British army) and domestic (Free State army), and I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, so help me, God.”



 
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Talk Back

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Well Devs bull about the Oath led to a civil war, his disenfranchisement of small investors in "The Irish Press( one of whom was my Grandfather) was fraud pure and simple, The DeValeras did well from The Press though.
There was no "Devs bull about the oath".

Yes, the Free Staters copied elements of Devs oath, BUT, it was in the context of having the enemy English King as Head of State and the King of Ireland - and accepting the partition of Ireland (Unionists had the opt-out clause in the articles of an agreement for a treaty).

De Valera's oath was in the context of 'External Association' - Ireland like other Free Nations such as Canada, New Zealand etc, associated with England's Empire (free in that these countries choose to be in the new Commonwealth, but could leave should they choose to exercise that right).

In that context, Dev's oath did not recognise the enemy king as the King of Ireland, but did recognise the enemy King as King/Head of the Commonwealth of Nations.

Dev's 'External Association' also had the 6 counties as having its own Parliament (temporary) - but as part of a reunified Ireland, not as part of the UK.

'External Association' was the game plan - it was agreed by the Dail Cabinet. Free Staters mislead/lied to the people about the Republic and the oath.

Anyway, it was Griffith who was the one who undermined the whole Irish position by secretly accepting partition in Nov with Lloyd George. That broke us when LG brought it up on the night, as much as the threat of war - and lead to the articles being signed.
 
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Major Infraction

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There was no "Devs bull about the oath".

Yes, the Free Staters copied elements of Devs oath, BUT, it was in the context of having the enemy English King as Head of State and the King of Ireland - and accepting the partition of Ireland (Unionists had the opt-out clause in the articles of an agreement for a treaty).

De Valera's oath was in the context of 'External Association' - Ireland like other Free Nations such as Canada, New Zealand etc, associated with England's Empire (free in that these countries choose to be in the new Commonwealth, but could leave should they choose to exercise that right).

In that context, Dev's oath did not recognise the enemy king as the King of Ireland, but did recognise the enemy King as King/Head of the Commonwealth of Nations.

Dev's 'External Association' also had the 6 counties as having its own Parliament (temporary) - but as part of a reunified Ireland, not as part of the UK.

'External Association' was the game plan - it was agreed by the Dail Cabinet. Free Staters mislead/lied to the people about the Republic and the oath.

Anyway, it was Griffith who was the one who undermined the whole Irish position by secretly accepting partition in Nov with Lloyd George. That broke us when LG brought it up on the night, as much as the threat of war - and lead to the articles being signed.
I may be going out on a limb here.

But, I’m guessing that you’re not a staunch Fine Gael first preference voter?
 
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