Islamophobia, Judaeophilia in contemporary indigenous Westerners and it says about us.

SwordOfStCatherine

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Before anyone starts this thread is basically about contemporary indigenous Westerners from historically Christian or Christian backgrounds.

I have been part of a very interesting three way discussion on the subject of the interconnection or lack thereof between Judaeophilia/Judaeophobia on hand among Christian or historically Christian Westerners and Islamophobia among us involving besides myself a Palestinian Jewess and an English man.

It began over the contention of the Jewess that Tommy Robinson and his fans would be raging Judaeophobes as much as they are raging Islamophobes and what is stopping them is that they never come into proper contact with Jews and lack the curiosity to read up on Judaism because Judaism and Islam are essentially the same Religion. Now to the likes of roc_ and even many contemporary (historically this was not so) Orthodox Jews no mind the likes of Tommy Robinson and Douglas Murray this would appear totally off the wall. However she can back up this contention from extremely authoritative Rabbinic Jewish sources, as authoritative as Moses Maimonides and the Zohar both of whom see basically Islam as bargain basement Rabbinic Judaism and the best Religion for the Goy (Neturei Karta still hold this position today). Her views are more nuanced on this subject (basically some forms of Judaism are superior to some forms of Islam and forms of it are inferior to other forms).

The English man's objection to this is that vast majority of contemporary indigenous Westerners don't care about Theology even if they call themselves Christian. Also that major driving factors in historic Western Christian Judaeophobia were Jews being or been seen as having a mercantile/capitalist spirit, being cut off from nature and being effeminate (early Zionism agreed with the Judaeaphobes here and saw itself as the cure for these problems as they saw it- note that I am not saying that this was necessarily the case) but now the historically Christian peoples have basically embraced a mercantile/capitalistic spirit, are themselves cut off from nature and by the standards of their ancestors of the first half of the 20 th century no mind the Christian Middle Ages are most definitely effeminate, so the basis for wide spread Judaeophobia has basically vanished (echoes of Marx's comment that the Jews have triumphed by making the Christians essentially Jews here). Coupled with this is that a major drive behind Islamophobia is that Islam does not see Religion as private, individual affair even in it's most moderate forms and is in your face often about the fact in a way outside Palestine Rabbinic Judaism simply is not. Added to this is that in the contemporary West money more than anything else bestows Kudos, far more so than physical courage, piety, intelligence, etc, etc- and that Jews here are generally wealthy while as Muslims here are generally poor and while you do get Westerners into victim or supposed victim worshiping you do not exactly find such characters among Tommy Robinson fans.
 

Tadhg Ó Raghallaigh

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Nobody ever responds to these silly topics, and you post one every day. It is difficult to mahe sense of this.
Because the subject matter goes over your head and under your feet. Even though you're a LARPing farmer out in the boondocks, you should read a bit more than the farmer's almanac.
 
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Before anyone starts this thread is basically about contemporary indigenous Westerners from historically Christian or Christian backgrounds.

I have been part of a very interesting three way discussion on the subject of the interconnection or lack thereof between Judaeophilia/Judaeophobia on hand among Christian or historically Christian Westerners and Islamophobia among us involving besides myself a Palestinian Jewess and an English man.

It began over the contention of the Jewess that Tommy Robinson and his fans would be raging Judaeophobes as much as they are raging Islamophobes and what is stopping them is that they never come into proper contact with Jews and lack the curiosity to read up on Judaism because Judaism and Islam are essentially the same Religion. Now to the likes of roc_ and even many contemporary (historically this was not so) Orthodox Jews no mind the likes of Tommy Robinson and Douglas Murray this would appear totally off the wall. However she can back up this contention from extremely authoritative Rabbinic Jewish sources, as authoritative as Moses Maimonides and the Zohar both of whom see basically Islam as bargain basement Rabbinic Judaism and the best Religion for the Goy (Neturei Karta still hold this position today). Her views are more nuanced on this subject (basically some forms of Judaism are superior to some forms of Islam and forms of it are inferior to other forms).

The English man's objection to this is that vast majority of contemporary indigenous Westerners don't care about Theology even if they call themselves Christian. Also that major driving factors in historic Western Christian Judaeophobia were Jews being or been seen as having a mercantile/capitalist spirit, being cut off from nature and being effeminate (early Zionism agreed with the Judaeaphobes here and saw itself as the cure for these problems as they saw it- note that I am not saying that this was necessarily the case) but now the historically Christian peoples have basically embraced a mercantile/capitalistic spirit, are themselves cut off from nature and by the standards of their ancestors of the first half of the 20 th century no mind the Christian Middle Ages are most definitely effeminate, so the basis for wide spread Judaeophobia has basically vanished (echoes of Marx's comment that the Jews have triumphed by making the Christians essentially Jews here). Coupled with this is that a major drive behind Islamophobia is that Islam does not see Religion as private, individual affair even in it's most moderate forms and is in your face often about the fact in a way outside Palestine Rabbinic Judaism simply is not. Added to this is that in the contemporary West money more than anything else bestows Kudos, far more so than physical courage, piety, intelligence, etc, etc- and that Jews here are generally wealthy while as Muslims here are generally poor and while you do get Westerners into victim or supposed victim worshiping you do not exactly find such characters among Tommy Robinson fans.
I would say its simple, islam and its history with the west is one of slavery and invasion, and people are seeing that history repeat itself in england and many others with the grooming of young girls and the takeover of city after city and introduction of sharia/no go areas.

The jews were a people without a state and so over time, for lots of reasons, acted in the interests of their group within the society/state they temporarilt were allowed settled in.
It makes a lot of sense to go mercantile as a group acting as a nation within a nation, as it is easy to uproot yourself when there is an inevitable reaction to such a group acting in their own interests, but if you are a farmer, then your likely in trouble getting out with anything other the the clothes on your back.
Of course this has effects on them as a group over time, no different to the marrying within the group, or the rabbinic version of their religion etc...
Now that they have a state they claim as their own, many have returned to farming and soldiery in israel/palestine.

I wonder what the effect of demographics as destiny regards orthodox eventually being the majority of jews will have.

But yes, europe has changed from one that values work, to one that worships money. So it makes sense that Jews are now given much higher status in a society, where conspicuous consumption is a primary goal, over muslims.
 
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SwordOfStCatherine

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I would say its simple, islam and its history with the west is one of slavery and invasion, and people are seeing that history repeat itself in england and many others with the grooming of young girls and the takeover of city after city and introduction of sharia/no go areas.

The jews were a people without a state and so over time, for lots of reasons, acted in the interests of their group within the society/state they temporarilt were allowed settled in.
It makes a lot of sense to go mercantile as a group acting as a nation within a nation, as it is easy to uproot yourself when there is an inevitable reaction to such a group acting in their own interests, but if you are a farmer, then your likely in trouble getting out with anything other the the clothes on your back.
Of course this has effects on them as a group over time, no different to the marrying within the group, or the rabbinic version of their religion etc...
Now that they have a state they claim as their own, many have returned to farming and soldiery in israel/palestine.

I wonder what the effect of demographics as destiny regards orthodox eventually being the majority of jews will have.

But yes, europe has changed from one that values work, to one that worships money. So it makes sense that Jews are now given much higher status in a society, where conspicuous consumption is a primary goal, over muslims.
Despite everything the Muslim question does take on different shapes in the different Western countries. The whole situation is a mess and likely to get more messy because our elites are so set on "Liberalism" that arrogantly they will never really step outside it. Most of the "National Populists" are themselves in essence Liberals.

The Kibbutz system which was the pride of the Zionist state at it's beginning has basically collapsed. More Jews are now probably involved in farming within the West Bank than they are within the Green Line. The contempt for doing agricultural work and for the people who do, do it goes back to the when the formation of Rabbinic Judaism really got going in serious of the crushing of the Simon Bar Khochba insurgencies in Palestine and related ones or terrorism in other parts of the Roman Empire. Though it never fully became this Rabbinic Judaism now started to take on especially in Europe proper the formation of a "People Caste" and this process was accelerated by the rise of Christianity and finally by the Empire's formal conversion. Ultimately it was a matter of abandoning the Judean peasantry, artisans and fisher folk by the merchant converts to their Religion. There is a very interesting discussion of this here (note- this is a Jewish source by a Rabbi and from an important Rabbinic family so please leave off the accusations of anti-Semitism):

"I Am Impossible”: An Exchange Between Jacob Taubes and Arthur A. Cohen - Jewish Review of Books

Also this is an incredibly interesting work that I only came across very recently:

Abram Leon: The Jewish Question - A Marxist Interpretation (1946)

The Jews not fighting thing is actually and being peaceable is actually a European Rabbinic myth that was picked up Zionists who saw it as something to be redeemed from. The whole thing about physical toughness and being war like has stayed with Zionism unlike the notion that farming was the most noble thing that one could do. The Khazar Empire while it lasted was incredibly warlike as were the Ḥimyarite and Judaeo-Berber Empires in Southern Arabia (it extended though into parts of Africa at times) and North Africa. Jews did play their parts in wars in the Levant and North Africa even if they did not in Europe right into the 19 th century. It is interesting to note that in the IDF most of the actual tough work and fighting is done by the Yemenis, North Africans and Ethiopians.
 
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Despite everything the Muslim question does take on different shapes in the different Western countries. The whole situation is a mess and likely to get more messy because our elites are so set on "Liberalism" that arrogantly they will never really step outside it. Most of the "National Populists" are themselves in essence Liberals.

The Kibbutz system which was the pride of the Zionist state at it's beginning has basically collapsed. More Jews are now probably involved in farming within the West Bank than they are within the Green Line. The contempt for doing agricultural work and for the people who do, do it goes back to the when the formation of Rabbinic Judaism really got going in serious of the crushing of the Simon Bar Khochba insurgencies in Palestine and related ones or terrorism in other parts of the Roman Empire. Though it never fully became this Rabbinic Judaism now started to take on especially in Europe proper the formation of a "People Caste" and this process was accelerated by the rise of Christianity and finally by the Empire's formal conversion. Ultimately it was a matter of abandoning the Judean peasantry, artisans and fisher folk by the merchant converts to their Religion. There is a very interesting discussion of this here (note- this is a Jewish source by a Rabbi and from an important Rabbinic family so please leave off the accusations of anti-Semitism):

"I Am Impossible”: An Exchange Between Jacob Taubes and Arthur A. Cohen - Jewish Review of Books

Also this is an incredibly interesting work that I only came across very recently:

Abram Leon: The Jewish Question - A Marxist Interpretation (1946)

The Jews not fighting thing is actually and being peaceable is actually a European Rabbinic myth that was picked up Zionists who saw it as something to be redeemed from. The whole thing about physical toughness and being war like has stayed with Zionism unlike the notion that farming was the most noble thing that one could do. The Khazar Empire while it lasted was incredibly warlike as were the Ḥimyarite and Judaeo-Berber Empires in Southern Arabia (it extended though into parts of Africa at times) and North Africa. Jews did play their parts in wars in the Levant and North Africa even if they did not in Europe right into the 19 th century. It is interesting to note that in the IDF most of the actual tough work and fighting is done by the Yemenis, North Africans and Ethiopians.
The numbers issue is a the big one, around ireland you just dont see jews or if you did would not realise it in general, but its hard not to see the number of ninjas running around the place. As example of late no one is demanding that police be allowed wear kippahs. The mobile phone is the biggest weapon the open borders advocate could dream of happening, as it mean the plebs rarely look up, let alone where they are walking, but eventually even they will start to see their areas being browned. Demographics is destiny and people dont see the jews outbreeding everyone. What goes on in the background is hidden in comparison to whats in the foreground.

To be fair, people in the west now thumb their nose at manual labour, expecting their humanities degee to give them the super job and respect they deserve. Hard work had to be beaten into people but now the plebs are living in a system that was built off the backs of countless generations, and are doing their best to squander the lot of it in just a few generations. I dont see how they would be any different now, irrespective of the past, at least for the general jew.

I found that first article difficult to read, it wasnt worth it, sorry.
The second one is interesting, i will have a look when i can.

Their were lots of successful jewish boxers in the early 20th century in the US, i dont doubt they can fight, the issue re the levant would be more that they now, at least, think one dead jew is worse then a million x, which can have a negative effect on their actual ability to act, especially with groups in the region that are quiet capable of fighting and risking their lives. Makes sense that the littler jews have to take up that slack.
 
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SwordOfStCatherine

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The numbers issue is a the big one, around ireland you just dont see jews or if you did would not realise it in general, but its hard not to see the number of ninjas running around the place. As example of late no one is demanding that police be allowed wear kippahs. The mobile phone is the biggest weapon the open borders advocate could dream of happening, as it mean the plebs rarely look up, let alone where they are walking, but eventually even they will start to see their areas being browned. Demographics is destiny and people dont see the jews outbreeding everyone. What goes on in the background is hidden in comparison to whats in the foreground.
Not Jews as a whole, but certain types and groups, have much more power in some Western countries (the UK and France for example) than Muslims do. I think most of the debates around Islam and Muslims among indigenous Westerns take place on a profoundly stupid level- Hitchcock here sees himself as a warrior against "Islamophobia" on Politics.ie but he has zero interest the ins and outs of different types of Muslims, their beliefs and cultures, but to me it would seem to behoove him to learn about them given his strong support for mass immigration and having a lot of Muslims around the place in a way that it would not behoove Myles, but no. I remember watching on youtube a middle aged indigenous English man going up to a group of pretty psycho Sunni supremacists who were handing out leaflets urging Muslims not to vote as England's de facto secular democracy (technically England remains a Protestant Christian State- however the vast amount of time you wouldn't realize that) was usurping God's authority and giving out to them on the grounds that they were helping UKIP win. They of course laughed him off- he completely did not understand the significance of the stance that they were taking. I have come across very many people both English and French who have grown up and spent a lot of their lives around Muslims and still do not know the first thing about Islam.

A really disturbing trend for me is the massive amounts of adult indigenous Western and even more worrying adult women who spend hours playing computer games, an activity that sucks in all your attention and totally removes you from reality locking you in, in your own head so that in effect you are not either relating to others or to your own core. At least with "Tablets", mobile phones, etc people are to some degree relating to others even if it is on a moronic level. I think increasingly that a lot of indigenous Westerners do not feel attached to anything that transcends themselves, even their own families. The Liberal-Left often accuses the likes of Tommy Robinson of being closest ethno-nationalists/"racists", I actually though think that most of the time when the "Counter-Jihad" lads and lasses angrily reject this notion they are being sincere (though this is not always the case).
 

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Three things here are glaringly obvious:
  • the headline poster still hasn't bothered to learn conventional punctuation. Hence we are provided with turgid, extended, rambling non-sentences.
  • I still haven't a clue what 'contemporary indigenous Westerners from historically Christian or Christian backgrounds" are. Does it mean Europeans could not be 'indigenous', before an Irish saint came by around the first millennium?
  • a heavy dose of Islamophobia or not-quite-being-a-Jew-baiter might say something about 'you', but it doesn't describe me.
Meanwhile, over and out. It's a nice day in these parts. Can't be arsed with the usual bigotry.
 
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Three things here are glaringly obvious:
  • the headline poster still hasn't bothered to learn conventional punctuation. Hence we are provided with turgid, extended, rambling non-sentences.
  • I still haven't a clue what 'contemporary indigenous Westerners from historically Christian or Christian backgrounds" are. Does it mean Europeans could not be 'indigenous', before an Irish saint came by around the first millennium?
  • a heavy dose of Islamophobia or not-quite-being-a-Jew-baiter might say something about 'you', but it doesn't describe me.
Meanwhile, over and out. It's a nice day in these parts. Can't be arsed with the usual bigotry.
A lot of Jews are indigenous to Europe as well, the thing is secular Jews come out of a different cultural to that of their fellow indigenous who's families were historically Christian. And no, people did not need a Christian missionary to turn them to Christ to become indigenous at all but that said Western civilization was born from the womb of Latin Christianity and I think there are strong reasons to believe that with it's passing into history the civilization it gave birth to will follow along soon after it.

I am not Islamophobic at all. In fact I would go so far as to say that Doctors Ali Shariati and Fathi Shaqaqi have had a huge effect on my own political thinking. I also greatly value the intellectual contributions to humanity at large of Mulla Sadra and Yahya ibn Habash Suhrawardi. Layla bint Tarif and Rabia of Basra are two of my all time favourite poets. In fact I have been accused here several times of shilling for Islam. Myles for instance will tell you that because of my background I have a ridiculous degree of tolerance for both arrogance and Religious fanaticism (sincere belief these days seems what most indigenous Westerners define as Religious fanaticism it has to be said) hence what he sees as my unnatural to the vast majority of Westerners openness to many (but not all) Islamic cultures. Atlantean is not so charitable in his explanations of my lack of Islamophobia.
 

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A lot of Jews are indigenous to Europe as well, the thing is secular Jews come out of a different cultural to that of their fellow indigenous who's families were historically Christian. And no, people did not need a Christian missionary to turn them to Christ to become indigenous at all but that said Western civilization was born from the womb of Latin Christianity and I think there are strong reasons to believe that with it's passing into history the civilization it gave birth to will follow along soon after it.

I am not Islamophobic at all. In fact I would go so far as to say that Doctors Ali Shariati and Fathi Shaqaqi have had a huge effect on my own political thinking. I also greatly value the intellectual contributions to humanity at large of Mulla Sadra and Yahya ibn Habash Suhrawardi. Layla bint Tarif and Rabia of Basra are two of my all time favourite poets. In fact I have been accused here several times of shilling for Islam. Myles for instance will tell you that because of my background I have a ridiculous degree of tolerance for both arrogance and Religious fanaticism (sincere belief these days seems what most indigenous Westerners define as Religious fanaticism it has to be said) hence what he sees as my unnatural to the vast majority of Westerners openness to many (but not all) Islamic cultures. Atlantean is not so charitable in his explanations of my lack of Islamophobia.
As long as you make sure to give us a shout before you start thinking about taking part in any Jihad Sword! :LOL:
 
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