Video Is Easter Pagan? Pagan Astarte or the Lord Jesus Christ?

The Field Marshal

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You seem to be confusing secular 'associations' (vague) with the actuality of what the Pasch is,ie, the liturgical celebration of Christ's conquest over death and His fulfillment of the messianic prophecies, particularly as detailed in Isiah.

The globo-homos for example deliberately stole the rainbow flag, God's promise of a new covenant with man, and so we now have a totally new 'association' devoid of original intent.

Why the need for such water muddying on something so clearly defined?
Secularists like Black Azrael and Page 61 are terrified of Christianity and seek always to downgrade its importence and status.
 

Black Azrael

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Presumably your own ancient Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew are tip top, as it relates to your study of the Pasch . Congrats
My Greek was good enough for entrance exhibition to TCD: allegedly much better than my Latin. Professor Jacob Weingreen gave us a quick once-over-lightly of Semitic languages (part of the TCD Comparative Philology required course) — but little of that stuck, I regret to say.

However, I know to whom to defer if I need assistance with Arabic.
 
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Oliver Plunkett

Oliver Plunkett

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My Greek was good enough for entrance exhibition to TCD:
not good enough it seems to help you make the distinction between actuality and association. Oh well
Still waiting for the academic sources showing that Christians some how managed to fail to celebrate the chief act of Christian ontology for the first 300 odd years of Christian praxis.
 

Black Azrael

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you have provided no academic source for the following absurd claim - "The christian festival of Easter didn't become general practice until — after the Council of Nicea (AD 325) '

We'll wait.
Is it not discriminatory that I, ex-Prod, am required to do so, when others, of a different denominational persuasion, get away with wild statements and no citations/authorities? To whom should I complain?

I am not-to-date on the scholarship. Keith Wilson of Brigham Young University (I know: quick shudder) did an essay for a 2006 Conference:
Both John and Luke note that Christ’s followers met together on “the first day of the week” (John 20:19; Acts 20:7; see also John 20:26). Luke also adds that the disciples were there to “break bread.” The reason for the abrupt shift seems to be the miraculous Resurrection; each Sabbath day for those earliest Christians was either a commemoration of or a reflection on the Easter miracle. Early Christian apologists Justin Martyr and Tertullian corroborate the celebration of Easter every Sunday in the Christian congregations of the second century. Eventually these weekly commemorations appear to have melded into one annual Easter celebration. Early Church father Irenaeus documented this annual celebration as he wrote against the dogmatic position of Bishop Victor of Rome, who demanded that Easter be affixed to only one day (Irenaeus favored a date that coincided with the Jewish Passover).
The fallout from that exchange confirms that by about AD 160 the Christian community had adopted a single, annual celebration. The Christian community, however, was far from unified concerning the date of Easter.

So, as I tried to suggest earlier, until the papacy of Victor I, the celebration of the Resurrection was in the weekly act of the Eucharist. Victor — an African, though I don't see that as wholly relevant — was engaged in (and largely the winner of) a power struggle against Polycrates of Ephesus and the Asia Minor church: that settled the celebration on a Sunday, rather than 14 Nisan. And gave Rome bragging rights.

Apart from the Arian problem, Nicea was in large part an attempt to reconcile the datings for Easter. As I read it, the disputes from the time of Victor I were still current. And we re-open that box of jumping frogs. The Alexandrians had astronomy to go on: the Romans (and now Constantinopolitans) had imperial diktat. In this spat the two opposing sides were the Antiochene (who accepted the Jewish reckoning for the Paschal moon) and the Alexandrian practice that Easter must always follow the vernal equinox. What came out of Nicea was acceptance of the Alexandrian method (though a few schismatics — the followers of Audius, banished to Scythia to preach to the Goths, and the "Protopaschates' broke discipline).

However, your post asks for academic sources on the early celebration of Easter. The best I can offer would be in the Old Catholic Encyclopaedia from 1909 (none of your modern San Diego rubbish): Herbert Thurston's essay, vol. v, pages 224-230. Christine Mohrmann ought to be relevant: her essay Pascha, Passio, Transitus, is in Ephemerides Liturgicae, vol. lxvi, pages 37-52. I cannot immediately access that, but there's Martin Connell spelling out the detail here.

Afterthought:
What has been running in my memory, finally rose to the surface of some distracted synapses. It's Henry Chadwick: The Early Church. Been around since 1967, and still in print. More to the point, I've just turned up my (or the Lady in my Life's) copy. Sure enough, swift refresher suggests it's all there: see pages 51, 84-5 (featuring aforesaid Victor), etc.
 
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Oliver Plunkett

Oliver Plunkett

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So, as I tried to suggest earlier, until the papacy of Victor I, the celebration of the Resurrection was in the weekly act of the Eucharist.
You suggested no such thing, rather you claimed that Easter was an invention of the mid 300s, thereby attempting to impute some sort of development of doctrine or theology not supported by the historical mission of Christ, thereby attempting to open some spurious door related to the adoption and 'inculturation' of pagan practices in whatever geographic context suits the narrative of unbelief .



 

gerhard dengler

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In your head
Standing up on our hind legs and mastering fire would be it for me

Easter like bonfire night (John’s night) or Halloween (all souls and all saints) and Christmas is where the Christians appropriated pagan festivals
Islam and Judaism have done the same thing
You're still entirely free to celebrate whatever pagan festival you choose.
 

Black Azrael

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You suggested no such thing, rather you claimed that Easter was an invention of the mid 300s, thereby attempting to impute some sort of development of doctrine or theology not supported by the historical mission of Christ, thereby attempting to open some spurious door related to the adoption and 'inculturation' of pagan practices in whatever geographic context suits the narrative of unbelief .
No: that was your interpretation in post #40. I didn't bother to correct you there, because it was so gross a mis-reading. What I did write, back at post #31 was (quoting verbatim):
The christian festival of Easter didn't become general practice until — after the Council of Nicea (AD 325) — the Emperor Constantine issued a diktat for uniformity, and specifically condemned reliance on the Jewish dating of Pesach. What Constantine failed to do was determine precisely how Easter should be calculated. A further complication is the continuing Eastern Orthodox use of the Julian calendar —which presently differs from the Gregorian by thirteen days. Where western and eastern traditions agree is that Easter Day is the first Sunday after the first full moon following the Spring equinox, but always after Passover. So, this year and next, the western Easter precedes the orthodox one by a full week (which is something of the normal interval), but in 2021 the difference is April 4th (western church) to May 2nd (eastern).
I recognise, if you really, really must, the expression didn't become general practice is capable of being twisted out of its obvious intent. It just needs a degree of malice. My intent was to describe how the church had applied different rules and calendars (in particular the conflict between Alexandria and Antioch — for more of which see post #101). And Constantine decreed Nicea to sort that out.

Again, to refer back to post #101 and others, there is no evidence that 'Easter' became an annual event much before the late second century. Here's Chadwick, page 84:
When Easter was introduced at Rome (c. 160), the feast was celebrated on the Sunday following the Jewish passover, which for practical purposes could be reckoned as the Sunday next after the first full moon after the spring equinox.
We then need to apply our intellects to what was the practice before this innovation. The consensus of the sources (see again post #101) is the celebration was the weekly Eucharist.
 
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Oliver Plunkett

Oliver Plunkett

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What would be useful is for those claiming a pagan Anglo Saxon influence on western Saxon/Celtic Christian praxis is to point out in the liturgy of the Latin Church, any and all such references to any of the imputed pagan deities that invariably are made reference to in these matters. Easter liturgical worship, after all, is the principal manifestation of practices related to the celebration of the Resurrection, otherwise known as Easter in English speaking countries. It makes sense then that if Easter is a pagan holiday we will find the churches liturgy littered with references to Ishtar and fertility cults etc. THis is exactly where we need to identify pagan cultist influence to support the argument that Easter is pagan, associated secular practices not withstanding. Secular traditions are of course irrelevant to this debate.

I await confirmation in this regard
 
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Oliver Plunkett

Oliver Plunkett

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The consensus of the sources (see again post #101) is the celebration was the weekly Eucharist.
Easter, or the Pasch, is still a fundamentally Eucharistic liturgical practice. Anyone who has experienced the Holy week and Easter celebrations understands this. The Eucharist is and always has been the principal and central act of Christian worship . Easter and all other christian holidays revolve around the Eucharist which is the summit of Christian life. This is not the matter at issue. We are attempting to understand why certain folk are belligerent in their belief that the Pasch, or Easter as it is known in English speaking lands, is of pagan origin, when clearly it is not, despite any local cultural colour that may have been adopted at some low and inconsequential level of inculturation, (outside of the liturgy that is).

The role of Christ as the new Paschal lamb (hence Christ's oft repeated insistence on consuming his body and blood), once and for all time, is of course Biblical. Therefore any early Christian celebration of Passover would naturally have had this new, christian aspect. Early Christian paschal practices would have had a whole new meaning. The Jewish Passover then, as with many other Jewish practices were a prefiguring of the Messianic mission.
Hence the importance of the Eucharist. Every mass is and always has been a new Passover, a new Easter.
 

darkhorse3

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The Field Marshal

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The earliest Christians celebrated the Ressurection of Jesus (Easter) in relation to the Jewish Passover which was when it happened
The dates differ now because of the difference between the Jewish Lunar Calendar and the Western Calendar
It never had anything to do with pagan festivals

https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/why-are-passover-and-easter-celebrated-at-different-times/
Spot on.
The denigration of Easter by imputing an exclusively pagan origin is part of the general attack on Christianity and in effect an attack on Christ Himself.
 
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