Great Quotes from the Communist Manifesto

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You think there's no conflict between Jeff Bezos and the workers he pays so badly that they qualify for food stamps? And the conflict between the bourgeoisie and the working class is not only about money - it's also about a vision for the world. Look at the conflict between the likes of Peter Sutherland and the Patriotic Irish working class. Bourgeois Sutherland wanted a multicultural Ireland where the Native Gael is just one minority among many. The Patriotic working class see Ireland's future very differently.
There is no doubt Jeff Bezos and others like him have had their minds warped through the habit of fingering the Capitalist rosary, just as you have clearly had your mind badly warped by your habit of fingering the Marxian rosary.

But in general, the majority of workers are fairly content with their lot, and their employers treat them fairly, their interests and world-view are fairly aligned. If workers unhappy, they can leave. They can train and work their way up. They don't have to work at Amazon for their entire lives. Regularly the role of "boss" and "worker" are even interchangeable over one's life.

That's in general. I recognise that for some people, they are fearful to leave their job, lose their weekly wage, they have no time or energy to educate themselves. But you have to admit that our present society does facilitate, fund and contribute to improving opportunities in this regard to a quite high degree. There is opportunity.

But anyway your posts on this have made something dawn on me. Is this the reason you decided to come and play to the kind of gallery that you find on this forum? To actually find a "working class" no matter how tiny that fit the mould of your Marxian dogma? And to proselytise to swell its ranks, cynically playing on the fears that you uncovered?
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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There is no doubt Jeff Bezos and others like him have had their minds warped through the habit of fingering the Capitalist rosary, just as you have clearly had your mind badly warped by your habit of fingering the Marxian rosary.

But in general, the majority of workers are fairly content with their lot, and their employers treat them fairly, their interests and world-view are fairly aligned. If workers unhappy, they can leave. They can train and work their way up. They don't have to work at Amazon for their entire lives. Regularly the role of "boss" and "worker" are even interchangeable over one's life.

That's in general. I recognise that for some people, they are fearful to leave their job, lose their weekly wage, they have no time or energy to educate themselves. But you have to admit that our present society does facilitate, fund and contribute to improving opportunities in this regard to a quite high degree. There is opportunity.

But anyway your posts on this have made something dawn on me. Is this the reason you decided to come and play to the kind of gallery that you find on this forum? To actually find a "working class" no matter how tiny that fit the mould of your Marxian dogma? And to proselytise to swell its ranks, cynically playing on the fears that you uncovered?

Do you believe that being anti-Capitalist is anti-Semitic? After all, Capitalism is the only system that allows Jewish money lenders to rob everyone else - and have police support to do it.

 
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Do you believe that being anti-Capitalist is anti-Semitic? After all, Capitalism is the only system that allows Jewish money lenders to rob everyone else - and have police support to do it.

Well an obvious diversion in your reply here, avoiding what I have put to you. Along with a whiff of desperation in the Jewish money-lenders" trope suddenly thrown out there.

But to answer it, no of course being anti-Capitalist is not anti-Semitic, taken on its own.

However what is obviously being referred to in this story is the actual historical movement itself of "anti-Capitalism", pervasive during Corbyn's formative years, and that he wholly subscribed to, and apparently still does to a significant degree.


Soviet anti-Zionism was a propaganda doctrine promulgated in the Soviet Union during the course of the Cold War, which intensified after the 1967 Six-Day War. It was officially sponsored by the department of propaganda of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and by the KGB. It alleged that Zionism was a form of racism, and argued that Zionists (and by extension Jewish people in general) were similar to Nazis.
In his 1969 book Beware! Zionism, Yuri Ivanov, Soviet Union's leading Zionologist, defined modern Zionism as follows:
Modern Zionism is the ideology, a ramified system of organisations and the practical politics of the wealthy Jewish bourgeoisie which has closely allied itself with monopoly circles in the USA and other imperialist countries. The main content of Zionism is bellicose chauvinism and anti-communism.
Many—including some within the Soviet Union itself—argued that Zionology exhibited anti-Semitic themes. For example, in November 1975, the leading Soviet historian and academic M. Korostovtsev wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Central Committee, of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union Mikhail Suslov, regarding the book The Encroaching Counter Revolution by Vladimir Begun:
"...it perceptibly stirs up anti-Semitism under the flag of anti-Zionism."
A similar picture was drawn by Paul Johnson:​
the mass media "all over the Soviet Union portrayed the Zionists (i.e. Jews) and Israeli leaders as engaged in a world-wide conspiracy along the lines of the old Protocols of Zion....
Sound familiar?
 
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Tadhg Gaelach

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Well an obvious diversion in your reply here, avoiding what I have put to you. Along with a whiff of desperation in the Jewish money-lenders" trope suddenly thrown out there.

But to answer it, no of course being anti-Capitalist is not anti-Semitic, taken on its own.

However what is obviously being referred to in this story is the actual historical movement itself of "anti-Capitalism", pervasive during Corbyn's formative years, and that he wholly subscribed to, and apparently still does to a significant degree.


Soviet anti-Zionism was a propaganda doctrine promulgated in the Soviet Union during the course of the Cold War, which intensified after the 1967 Six-Day War. It was officially sponsored by the department of propaganda of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and by the KGB. It alleged that Zionism was a form of racism, and argued that Zionists (and by extension Jewish people in general) were similar to Nazis.
In his 1969 book Beware! Zionism, Yuri Ivanov, Soviet Union's leading Zionologist, defined modern Zionism as follows:
Modern Zionism is the ideology, a ramified system of organisations and the practical politics of the wealthy Jewish bourgeoisie which has closely allied itself with monopoly circles in the USA and other imperialist countries. The main content of Zionism is bellicose chauvinism and anti-communism.
Many—including some within the Soviet Union itself—argued that Zionology exhibited anti-Semitic themes. For example, in November 1975, the leading Soviet historian and academic M. Korostovtsev wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Central Committee, of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union Mikhail Suslov, regarding the book The Encroaching Counter Revolution by Vladimir Begun:
"...it perceptibly stirs up anti-Semitism under the flag of anti-Zionism."
A similar picture was drawn by Paul Johnson:​
the mass media "all over the Soviet Union portrayed the Zionists (i.e. Jews) and Israeli leaders as engaged in a world-wide conspiracy along the lines of the old Protocols of Zion....
Sound familiar?

Yes, it sounds like the Soviets had the measure of the ZioNazis. But, this is a thread on the Communist Manifesto. Let's not turn it into yet another thread about Zionist crimes.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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Do you believe that being anti-Capitalist is anti-Semitic? After all, Capitalism is the only system that allows Jewish money lenders to rob everyone else - and have police support to do it.

You find an increasing number of right wing and centrist Zionist Jews who do.

 
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Yes, it sounds like the Soviets had the measure of the ZioNazis. But, this is a thread on the Communist Manifesto. Let's not turn it into yet another thread about Zionist crimes.
It was you who diverted it into that. Whereas I was pressing you as regards the present day realities of this alleged just about to break out any day now, due apparently to massive diverging of interests, and resentments built up etc, coming "war" between the "workers" and the "bourgeousie". In other words the central idea that your dogma is based on.

Now, don't get me wrong, I admire Marx's insights. But I think you have to be unblinking as regards the realities as they have transpired 170 years later to take away any valuable lessons. Marx may have been a prophet, and we are today in a position to observe how good those prophecies were.

There is also a relevance of the Soviet adoption of this "holy book" of the Marxist creed and prophecies, and what they did with it. Obviously, I think it was a degeneracy, and it may have partly stemmed from the Marxist creed itself, that they felt bound to identify the "enemy" of this creed through drawing on such Protocols of Zion like shibelloths as "wealthy Jewish bourgeoisie closely allying themselves with monopoly circles in the USA and other imperialist countries" etc. And that kind of thing was assimilated into the "faith". Which the "faithful" very gladly took up.

Of course Marxism is a kind of secular religion, and these quotes on these pages, while interesting and inspiring, are somewhat like bible quotations, and with that in mind we would do well to remember the kind of religious fervour that they inspired in the past, at the cost of many million of lives extinguished, the "ends" apparently justifying the "means".

But let us return with that to the quotations.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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It was you who diverted it into that. Whereas I was pressing you as regards the present day realities of this alleged just about to break out any day now, due apparently to massive diverging of interests, and resentments built up etc, coming "war" between the "workers" and the "bourgeousie". This is actually the central idea that your dogma is based on.

Now, don't get me wrong, I admire Marx's insights. But I think you have to be unblinking as regards the realities as they have transpired 170 years later to take away any valuable lessons. Marx may have been a prophet, and we are today in a position to observe how good those prophecies were.

There is also a relevance of the Soviet adoption of this "holy book" of the Marxist creed and prophecies, and what they did with it. Obviously, I think it was a degeneracy, and it partly stemmed from the Marxist creed, that they felt bound to identify the "enemy" of this creed through drawing on such Protocols of Zion like shibelloths as "wealthy Jewish bourgeoisie closely allying themselves with monopoly circles in the USA and other imperialist countries" etc. And that kind of thing was assimilated into the "faith". The "faithful" gladly took it up.

Of course Marxism is a kind of secular religion, and these quotes on these pages, while interesting and inspiring, are somewhat like bible quotations, and with that in mind we would do well to remember the kind of religious fervour that they inspired in the past, at the cost of many million of lives extinguished, the "ends" apparently justifying the "means".

But let us return with that to the quotations.

You seem a bit confused. You begin that post by saying that there's no chance that anything in the Communist Manifesto will come true - and you end by warning us of the dangers of reading the Communist Manifesto - as it might come true.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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Yes, it sounds like the Soviets had the measure of the ZioNazis. But, this is a thread on the Communist Manifesto. Let's not turn it into yet another thread about Zionist crimes.
Just a small historical note- Vladimir Begun was himself part Jewish in background and tragically a lot of his predictions in "The Encroaching Counter-Revolution" came true.
 
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You seem a bit confused. You begin that post by saying that there's no chance that anything in the Communist Manifesto will come true - and you end by warning us of the dangers of reading the Communist Manifesto - as it might come true.
That's a bit of a simplistic reading of what I posted, now.

Put it this way then. I'm just asking you to rationalise your faith in the coming "war" between the classes, interjecting a few of my own present day observations, out of an interest in what you think.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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That's a bit of a simplistic reading of what I posted, now.

Put it this way then. I'm just asking you to rationalise your faith in the coming "war" between the classes, interjecting a few of my own present day observations, out of an interest in what you think.

My main interest in Marx is his method of analyzing what already exists. The Communist Manifesto is a kind of wish list of the Communist Party, rather than a serious work of analysis - as Das Kapital is. But, even so, the analysis of the bourgeoisie and their destruction of families, nations and cultures presented in the Manifesto is completely 100% accurate - as much today as in the 1860s, or even more so. Of course, the Manifesto is urging the Proletariat to rise up off their knees. But, the bourgeoisie has been very effective at putting off that day of judgement. It may come in an manner not expected by Marx. Perhaps a Global Caliphate will get the job done - Mohammad was a kind of Proto-Communist. Or maybe theocracies of other kinds. Personally, I think that's more likely than what Marx imagined might happen.
 
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SwordOfStCatherine

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My main interest in Marx is his method of analyzing what already exists. The Communist Manifesto is a kind of wish list of the Communist Party, rather than a serious work of analysis - as Das Kapital is. But, even so, the analysis of the bourgeoisie and their destruction of nations and cultures presented in the Manifesto is completely 100% accurate - as much today as in the 1860s, or even more so. Of course, the Manifesto is urging the Proletariat to rise up off their knees. But, the bourgeoisie has been very effective at putting off that day of judgement. It may come in an manner not expected by Marx. Perhaps a Global Caliphate will get the job done - Mohammad was a kind of Proto-Communist. Or maybe theocracies of other kinds. Personally, I think that's more likely than what Marx imagined might happen.
I am not and have never been a Marxist as such never the less Marx's work for all it's reductionism and silly 19 th century utopianism in places does have tremendous explanatory value which is a large reason why it gained a quasi-Religious devotion of so many millions in the 20 th century. People are being extremely foolish if they dismiss his work. I also think that to maintain Socialism you do need some kind of Religion or an extremely intense nationalism such as Liberated Korea has in order to keep people bound together. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation now basically admits such.

Do you know the works of Georges Sorel? He was more a Marxian than a Marxist though he called himself a Marxist without however being rigidly "orthodox" about it at all (Marx himself said that he was not a "Marxist"). I think you would find his work very interesting especially "Reflections on Violence":

Georges Sorel - Wikipedia

https://libcom.org/files/Sorel-Reflections-on-Violence-ed-Jennings.pdf

Caution is necessary with wiki.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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I am not and have never been a Marxist as such never the less Marx's work for all it's reductionism and silly 19 th century utopianism in places does have tremendous explanatory value which is a large reason why it gained a quasi-Religious devotion of so many millions in the 20 th century. People are being extremely foolish if they dismiss his work. I also think that to maintain Socialism you do need some kind of Religion or an extremely intense nationalism such as Liberated Korea has in order to keep people bound together. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation now basically admits such.

Do you know the works of Georges Sorel? He was more a Marxian than a Marxist though he called himself a Marxist without however being rigidly "orthodox" about it at all (Marx himself said that he was not a "Marxist"). I think you would find his work very interesting especially "Reflections on Violence":

Georges Sorel - Wikipedia

https://libcom.org/files/Sorel-Reflections-on-Violence-ed-Jennings.pdf

Caution is necessary with wiki.

Go raibh maith agat as sin a chara, I haven't read anything by Sorel, I'll certainly have a look.
 
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