Welcome to Political Irish

We believe in free legal speech, fair play and good discussion. Sign up and join in!

Register Log in

Self Moderated God as the Source of Freedom

Sailor

PI Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
211
Likes
225
The Christian God is not all loving, this is a fallacy. He does worse to you than chucking you into the sea with a millstone tied around your neck if you cause little ones to stumble
But this is defining a god who permits evil as well as good. Why should that be an essential characteristic of the nature of a divinity?
 

The Field Marshal

PI Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
6,061
Likes
5,349
For God to create us as human, He must give us the space for faith. If God stopped evil from happening, then we would not have the freedom to do evil, and hence, we would not have the freedom to do good either - anymore than a programmed machine does. If God stopped evil, then we would know that God exists, and so would not have the freedom to believe in God, or have faith in God (or in anything else either). I do not believe the Sun exists. I know the Sun exists. Therefore the Sun cannot give me any freedom or moral agency.
God created us to know Him.
That can only occur by arriving at a truthful perspective on reality, history and life’s moral issues.
Only catholic paradigms can provið this truth
Paradigms based on nearly 2000 continuous years of church authority and teachings.

You seek to elide and excise 1600 years of that teaching hence you will never arrive at truth until you fully accept the hermeneutic of papal continuity for that period.
 

The Field Marshal

PI Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
6,061
Likes
5,349
But this is defining a god who permits evil as well as good. Why should that be an essential characteristic of the nature of a divinity?
We can not know the nature of God becuase God is infinite.
We can only know effects permitted by God.
One of these effects is evil as in Phil Hogan.
 

Sailor

PI Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
211
Likes
225
We can not know the nature of God becuase God is infinite.
We can only know effects permitted by God.
One of these effects is evil as in Phil Hogan.
Good evening, FM.;)
Tell me, how do you know that God is infinite if you cannot know God's nature?
As for Phil, the poor man can’t help it, he is after all a Blueshirt - a terrible affliction for any man to have to bear!
 

ShumanTheHuman

Donator
PI Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Messages
599
Likes
1,109
Location
Caves of Ice
But this is defining a god who permits evil as well as good. Why should that be an essential characteristic of the nature of a divinity?
Death must fall into your category of evils we have no control over. If God created the universe without these evils there would be no need for free will, nothing bad would ever happen. That being the case there would be no death, we would already be in Heaven
 

The Field Marshal

PI Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
6,061
Likes
5,349
Good evening, FM.;)
Tell me, how do you know that God is infinite if you cannot know God's nature?
As for Phil, the poor man can’t help it, he is after all a Blueshirt - a terrible affliction for any man to have to bear!
Good evening Sailor(y)
We can know aspects of Gods nature.

But how do I know God is infinite?
I think only something infinite could have made the likes of myself.

That’s how.
 
Last edited:

genememe

DEPORTED
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Messages
443
Likes
212
What you say back in #18 does not mean that they do not exist, instead it suggests that their meaning is subject to interpretation i.e they lack a single objective definition. That is no different from a physical measurement such as velocity, which Relativity explains as varying with the reference frame of the observer. But I don’t think you would suggest that velocity does not exist.
The Christian belief is that good and evil exist as ontological categories. I reject this.

Debates that assume apriori that good and evil have objective meaning and proceed from there are about as intellectually meaningful as a pair of gibbons flinging faeces at each other.
Even more absurd is the assumption that some creator deity would care for the inane quibbles of a bunch of primates (us not the gibbons)

It would be more interesting to debate why we ascribe value in the way we do in the first place.
 

Sailor

PI Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
211
Likes
225
The Christian belief is that good and evil exist as ontological categories. I reject this.

Debates that assume apriori that good and evil have objective meaning and proceed from there are about as intellectually meaningful as a pair of gibbons flinging faeces at each other.
Even more absurd is the assumption that some creator deity would care for the inane quibbles of a bunch of primates (us not the gibbons)

It would be more interesting to debate why we ascribe value in the way we do in the first place.
I would agree that many actions are open to a relativistic interpretation and one man’s good could be another man’s evil. But these are actions that fall into the ‘grey category’ where good and evil meet and can overlap. But there are also actions that we can define without qualification as good and equally actions that can be categorized as objectively evil.
 

oldsoul

PI Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
Messages
86
Likes
109
I think we know enough in our modern age to be able to discern aspects of religion that are not useless or were context driven. We can also see what teachings are clearly timeless and practically valuable eg family, degeneracy, sin, shame. Catholicism is prob best imo but the whole church needs complete reform. If priests could marry I bet the Church would fill up with patriots. Get rid of Rome as its corrupt to the core. A peoples church would work but there would have to be consensus going forward on core principals. Economics and how a country fictions monetarily is a whole other beast. I would argue that there are moral absolutes and limits that have to be in place to sustain the moral order.
 

genememe

DEPORTED
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Messages
443
Likes
212
I would agree that many actions are open to a relativistic interpretation and one man’s good could be another man’s evil. But these are actions that fall into the ‘grey category’ where good and evil meet and can overlap. But there are also actions that we can define without qualification as good and equally actions that can be categorized as objectively evil.
When we're discussing day to day human affairs, we most certainly can describe actions as either good or evil.

But at a few levels removed from humanity, what seems bad or "evil" from our perspective may very well be "good" in the grander scheme of things.
For example, if humanity were to go extinct as a result of a series of "evil" actions, such as war and genocide, this could pave the way for another species to dominate the planet -- it would be "good" from their perspective.

Reflecting upon this, it seems ridiculous to extrapolate from the level human affairs to the level of a creator deity and assume our species value judgements are of supreme relevance.

And I've only dealt with planet earth in my above thought experiment, never mind the cosmos as a whole.
 

Sailor

PI Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
211
Likes
225
When we're discussing day to day human affairs, we most certainly can describe actions as either good or evil.

But at a few levels removed from humanity, what seems bad or "evil" from our perspective may very well be "good" in the grander scheme of things.
For example, if humanity were to go extinct as a result of a series of "evil" actions, such as war and genocide, this could pave the way for another species to dominate the planet -- it would be "good" from their perspective.

Reflecting upon this, it seems ridiculous to extrapolate from the level human affairs to the level of a creator deity and assume our species value judgements are of supreme relevance.

And I've only dealt with planet earth in my above thought experiment, never mind the cosmos as a whole.
I don’t think the example you give proves your point. For example, a perfectly rational argument can be made that, not having made a very good job of managing the planet, it would be objectively good if we were to become extinct and open the way for another species to have a go at the task.
 
Top Bottom