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Self Moderated God as the Source of Freedom

Tadhg Gaelach

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For God to create us as human, He must give us the space for faith. If God stopped evil from happening, then we would not have the freedom to do evil, and hence, we would not have the freedom to do good either - anymore than a programmed machine does. If God stopped evil, then we would know that God exists, and so would not have the freedom to believe in God, or have faith in God (or in anything else either). I do not believe the Sun exists. I know the Sun exists. Therefore the Sun cannot give me any freedom or moral agency.
 

dara

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I dont think God actually cares about us in the same way that the bible teaches.

God created many things, we are just a cog in the greater machine.
 

Sailor

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For God to create us as human, He must give us the space for faith. If God stopped evil from happening, then we would not have the freedom to do evil, and hence, we would not have the freedom to do good either - anymore than a programmed machine does. If God stopped evil, then we would know that God exists, and so would not have the freedom to believe in God, or have faith in God (or in anything else either). I do not believe the Sun exists. I know the Sun exists. Therefore the Sun cannot give me any freedom or moral agency.
Why would a God feel he should give us the freedom to do evil things? Free will can be a choice of good things, not just good versus evil.
 

Superhans

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If you watch the TV show Supernatural the God on that show basically gave up on the Earth and pissed off to a new alternative universe to start over. Leaving this universe to carry on without him.
 

Sailor

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If you watch the TV show Supernatural the God on that show basically gave up on the Earth and pissed off to a new alternative universe to start over. Leaving this universe to carry on without him.
Would you blame him? Or should one say ‘her’?
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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I have always been instinctively uncomfortable with Theodicies.

However in my experience the core problem when it comes down it indigenous Irish people from Catholic backgrounds and indigenous English people have with Christianity (before anyone starts about my use of the term indigenous here the problems that both Muslims and Jews have with Christianity are very different- with their problems I am on much more comfortable ground) is the "Problem of Evil". Truth be told when it comes to this I cannot get basically past the response of the Book of Job to this question which is- "Who the Fxxk do you think you are to be even asking this question?". Which is very obviously totally unsatisfactory to the situation.
 
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Tadhg Gaelach

Tadhg Gaelach

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I have always been instinctively uncomfortable with Theodicies.

However in my experience the core problem when it comes down it indigenous Irish people from Catholic backgrounds and indigenous English people have with Christianity (before anyone starts about my use of the term indigenous here the problems that both Muslims and Jews have with Christianity are very different- with their problems I am on much more comfortable ground) is the "Problem of Evil". Truth be told when it comes to this I cannot get basically past the response of the Book of Job to this question which is- "Who the Fxxk do you think you are to be even asking this question?". Which is very obviously totally unsatisfactory to the situation.

The OP is from June 2016, and my reading of esoteric teachings has widened quite a lot since then, but I still like God's answer to Job. The fact is that any God capable of creating the Universe would not be containable by human logic and morality. God's monologue in the Book of Job is all the greater for the fact that God Himself seems amazed by His own creation and even He finds it rather inexplicable.
 

Sailor

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I believe CS Lewis has an answer to this
Thanks - but I have two problems with that argument:

1. It seems to depend on Lewis’s own particular definition of his God, and does not extend to a divinity which would not require us to have unrestricted free will.

2. It concentrates only on those aspects of evil that are within our control i.e. those evils that we consciously do. But there are other evils over which we have little or no control e.g painful illnesses. Lewis does not address this category of evil, and if we are to believe in a loving god then we must reconcile this evil with the good and loving divinity.
 

Sailor

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The OP is from June 2016, and my reading of esoteric teachings has widened quite a lot since then, but I still like God's answer to Job. The fact is that any God capable of creating the Universe would not be containable by human logic and morality. God's monologue in the Book of Job is all the greater for the fact that God Himself seems amazed by His own creation and even He finds it rather inexplicable.
Surely you accept that those are the words of Job, or some contemporary, rather than the words of God?
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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The OP is from June 2016, and my reading of esoteric teachings has widened quite a lot since then, but I still like God's answer to Job. The fact is that any God capable of creating the Universe would not be containable by human logic and morality. God's monologue in the Book of Job is all the greater for the fact that God Himself seems amazed by His own creation and even He finds it rather inexplicable.
There is an aspect of this that I think needs pointing out. Part of maturing is the realization which sometimes can be quite painful that you are not nearly as objective as you would like to think you are and that in order to really grow as a person there is no getting around struggling towards objectivity. This seems to be something that is being increasingly forgotten.
 

genememe

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Why would a God feel he should give us the freedom to do evil things? Free will can be a choice of good things, not just good versus evil.
There is no such thing as "good" and "evil", only necessity.
 
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