Does contemporary "Liberal" Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism have it's roots in Conor "Cruise" O'Brien's response to the Troubles?

SwordOfStCatherine

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I believe he is through the maternal line - which means he's the real thing.
Has this fact appeared in print? I admit that though when I am feeling a bit anxious over something I watch his appearance in debate with the Wofle Tones on some RTE programme back in the late 1990s on youtube which I find absolutely hilarious, the Wolfe Tones absolutely slaughter him and make him look totally ridiculous- and yes I fully realize that schadenfreude is a bit of a negative Ulster Scot trait- but I haven't really followed his work,. The only thing remotely Jewy in anything by him which I have read was his claim that the threat of Fascism was something that had spurred him on (remember during the Troubles he regarded the Provisional Movement as Fascists) and that he was inspired in this by the German Jewish thinkers Ernst Bloch and Walter Benjamin which I found really crazy- Rabbi Jacob Taubes who was a very sharp eyed observer and eighty per cent of the time very objective said that if Ernst Bloch had not been a Jew he would have easily gotten sucked into Hitlerism, if you read "The Spirit of Utopia" he can see why he reached this conclusion, Walter Benjamin was obsessed by concept of the Fall which he understood in a strange synthesis of Lutheran and Kabbalistic ideas and stood politically very close to the National Bolsheviks as well as having had a lengthy enough correspondence with Carl Schmitt (this was before Hitler came to power). Neither thinker were Liberals- in fact both were deeply anti-Liberal. I thought him coming out with that statement just showed how vacuous the Anglosphere has become intellectually to the point that some utter pretentious gobshyte knows that he can get away with any blather no matter how surreally stupid. The notion that someone who if he were around now would be closest in terms of sensibility and thought to Iranian hard liners would inspire anyone to fight against the Provos in the name of "Anti-Fascism" is just crazy talk.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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Has this fact appeared in print? I admit that though when I am feeling a bit anxious over something I watch his appearance in debate with the Wofle Tones on some RTE programme back in the late 1990s on youtube which I find absolutely hilarious, the Wolfe Tones absolutely slaughter him and make him look totally ridiculous- and yes I fully realize that schadenfreude is a bit of a negative Ulster Scot trait- but I haven't really followed his work,. The only thing remotely Jewy in anything by him which I have read was his claim that the threat of Fascism was something that had spurred him on (remember during the Troubles he regarded the Provisional Movement as Fascists) and that he was inspired in this by the German Jewish thinkers Ernst Bloch and Walter Benjamin which I found really crazy- Rabbi Jacob Taubes who was a very sharp eyed observer and eighty per cent of the time very objective said that if Ernst Bloch had not been a Jew he would have easily gotten sucked into Hitlerism, if you read "The Spirit of Utopia" he can see why he reached this conclusion, Walter Benjamin was obsessed by concept of the Fall which he understood in a strange synthesis of Lutheran and Kabbalistic ideas and stood politically very close to the National Bolsheviks as well as having had a lengthy enough correspondence with Carl Schmitt (this was before Hitler came to power). Neither thinker were Liberals- in fact both were deeply anti-Liberal. I thought him coming out with that statement just showed how vacuous the Anglosphere has become intellectually to the point that some utter pretentious gobshyte knows that he can get away with any blather no matter how surreally stupid. The notion that someone who if he were around now would be closest in terms of sensibility and thought to Iranian hard liners would inspire anyone to fight against the Provos in the name of "Anti-Fascism" is just crazy talk.

Yes, I read it in one of his own articles.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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Yes, I read it in one of his own articles.
I am inclined to wonder whether he was fibbing. Western Non-Jewish Philo-Semitism can be a very strange thing indeed. There is character who writes for The Irish Catholic from a bourgeois "Conservative Catholic" family (note I am a Conservative and not a Traditionalist Catholic- "Liberal Catholicism" in Ireland is simply not Christian, in some ways I am hard line Conservative and in some ways I am not, I do though have a lot of problems with bourgeois "Conservative Catholicism" and I respect the SSPX a lot more than I do most bourgeois "Conservative Catholics" despite our differences) who is named Chai Brady. I have been communicating with a Jewess through pms on P.ie who is named Chai- Chai is Hebrew for lives or is alive, hence the slogan "Kahane Chai!". What sort of Irish parents give their lad a Hebrew girls' name? The actually Jewish Chai believes that Western Non-Jewish Philo-Semitism comes down to people loving the Yanks and hating Muslims, she neither loves Yanks or hates Muslims and so finds it creepy. I think it is about attitudes to Capitalist (Post-) Modernity. There is some truth in the idea that Jews were scapegoated by Hitlerites and other anti-Semities in the post-1789 era for the sins of capitalist modernity and there are deep historical reasons for this. I think that these Philo-Semites are Philo-Semites for very similar reasons that some people were anti-Semitic in 19 th and 20 th centuries in many ways.
 

Anglophile

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A bullshit story from an obvious anti Semite.

Any Israeli arms were delivered in the years before the Falklands War
( which couldn't have been predicted )

The business of arms dealers or selling military equipment is to make money.

'Hate' rarely comes in to it.

You might have some credibility, if it had been nearly forty years earlier... ;)
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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A bullshit story from an obvious anti Semite.

Any Israeli arms were delivered in the years before the Falklands War
( which couldn't have been predicted )

The business of arms dealers or selling military equipment is to make money.

'Hate' rarely comes in to it.

You might have some credibility, if it had been nearly forty years earlier... ;)
The contemporary "Daily Mail" anti-Semitic? :say What?:

It was so viciously in the past. However now they have that utter crazy Melanie Philips writing for them and swinging her sword. Anti-Britishness was a key part of Zionism as it developed, the whole myth of the "Israeli war of independence" revolved around it. Tele if you read the article you will a lot more was involved than simply business. In fact Zionism had quite a cult of Irish Republicanism until the 1980s.
 

Anglophile

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The contemporary "Daily Mail" anti-Semitic? :say What?:

It was so viciously in the past. However now they have that utter crazy Melanie Philips writing for them and swinging her sword. Anti-Britishness was a key part of Zionism as it developed, the whole myth of the "Israeli war of independence" revolved around it. Tele if you read the article you will a lot more was involved than simply business. In fact Zionism had quite a cult of Irish Republicanism until the 1980s.
The British willingness to sell out to the Arabs before the Second World War
( with all notions of the Balfour Declaration and their own League of Nations mandate forgotten )
might have had something to do with it..... ;)
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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The British willingness to sell out to the Arabs before the Second World War
( with all notions of the Balfour Declaration and their own League of Nations mandate forgotten )
might have had something to do with it..... ;)

You mean hand Palestine over to the people actually living there rather than to Polish and Ukrainian people who had never set foot in Palestine in their lives?
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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You mean hand Palestine over to the people actually living there rather than to Polish and Ukrainian people who had never set foot in Palestine in their lives?
The Brits wanted to the Zionist colonists to somewhat behave themselves and thought ethnic cleansing of Palestine would lead to all types of messiness. However while they tried to somewhat limit immigration after 1929 they also tied the hands of the Toms on the ground in regards to Zionist terrorism- you have to remember that in order to create the "farming and fighting New Hebrew" Zionist terrorists would murder not just the indigenous population but also members of the British security forces and also British civilians in the interests of "Jewish self esteem". Eventually it came to the point where some Toms formed a terrorist group with members of the indigenous population to hit back against the Zionist colonists which I think illustrates how bad things got. My mum in law told me that a relative of hers who served in British Mandate Palestine told her about coming across a shack owned by local Palestinian Christians and going in discovering all the icons smashed on the floor, the parents murdered and the skulls of the toddlers crushed to pieces. When Zionist colonist terrorists would capture Toms they would often torture them to death- one such incident sparked the biggest anti-Semitic riots in British history in England which have been swept under the rug.

The fact is that as such goes the PIRA were extremely polite which is why I find "Anglophile"'s hypocrisy on these issues galling.
 

Heraclitus

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It was Rain2Fire who inspired this thread.

Middle class is a vague term, actual haute bourgeois capitalists and big farming families often used to the Church to off load their homosexual or incompetent sons on. Catholicism in Ireland, at least in the South, is often very lax when it comes to sexual issues and things such as Hinduism or Hindu derived stuff while at the same time being very right wing on social justice issues. Often you will find people who say that they are orthodox Catholics but when you scratch them you discover they are anything but however because they hold right wing economic and political positions they identify with the Church's "Right". Than there is the weird- at least to me- world of Opus Dei.

The relationship of Religion to sociology is an interesting topic. Carl Schmitt back in the 1920s claimed that only really either peasants or Aristocrats make proper Priests and with the gradual eclipse of both groups in Germany the Church was bound to run into serious problems. Father Vincent Mc Nabb who was a very brilliant Ulster man who seems to be more remembered in England than in Ireland wrote a very interesting book entitled "The Church and the Land" in which he claimed that flower properly Catholicism needed an agrarian environment. I wonder how much the spread in our life times of both Pentecostalism and Salafism has to do with them reflecting in their own ways the contemporary urban slums.

Something I have begun to do research into is Jacob Frank and Frankism. You will find a lot of conspiracy theory stuff claiming that the Rothschilds are Frankists which is utter nonsense from the likes of Henry Makow et al however all that is total nonsense. Frankist Judaism was basically a social revolt of impoverished Jews against the Rabbinic elite and it's socio-economic values.
The Catholicism practiced among the older generations, particularly in the working classes, is basically Hiberno Animism with an Abrahamic veneer.

It has nothing, zilch, to do with the pseudo Aristotelian twaddle promulgated to toffee nosed brats in Jesuit secondary schools.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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The Catholicism practiced among the older generations, particularly in the working classes, is basically Hiberno Animism with an Abrahamic veneer.

It has nothing, zilch, to do with the pseudo Aristotelian twaddle promulgated to toffee nosed brats in Jesuit secondary schools.
Thanked for the expression toffee nosed- my sister calls me that and it is not an expression I hear regularly.

I think you are wrong though.
 

Heraclitus

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Thanked for the expression toffee nosed- my sister calls me that and it is not an expression I hear regularly.

I think you are wrong though.
That's because you're a convert.

You arrived at Catholicism (I'm assuming) through a more scholarly angle with the doctrines neatly laid out, and "expert" commentary on all matters Catholic accessible at the click of a mouse.

Your experience is likely very different to that of the average Irish person born into the religion a few generations ago.

Some flavour of Animism seems to be the default belief system of all peoples the world over.
 
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