Does contemporary "Liberal" Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism have it's roots in Conor "Cruise" O'Brien's response to the Troubles?

SwordOfStCatherine

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Though it does not have as strong as presence on here as it has on Politics.ie and Boards.ie we still have some of contemporary "Liberal" Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism on here which is as rabid as anything you will find among Ulster's savage Prods though both less imaginative and thankfully at least so far less prone to violence. The Troubles I often feel freaked out the Southern Irish ruling class, or at least a very significant proportion of it, more than it did Unionist ruling class in Northern Ireland and certainly a lot more than it did the actually British one. One aspect of this was that we saw the rise of people such as Conor "Cruise" O'Brien and Mary Robinson putting forward the notion that Catholicism was a core problem driving the Troubles and especially in the case of the former adopting whole heartedly a Whig Freemasonic view of Irish history. How much is such carry on during the Troubles on the part of some Southerners to blame for contemporary completely head the ball Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism?
 

George Dillon

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Though it does not have as strong as presence on here as it has on Politics.ie and Boards.ie we still have some of contemporary "Liberal" Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism on here which is as rabid as anything you will find among Ulster's savage Prods though both less imaginative and thankfully at least so far less prone to violence. The Troubles I often feel freaked out the Southern Irish ruling class, or at least a very significant proportion of it, more than it did Unionist ruling class in Northern Ireland and certainly a lot more than it did the actually British one. One aspect of this was that we saw the rise of people such as Conor "Cruise" O'Brien and Mary Robinson putting forward the notion that Catholicism was a core problem driving the Troubles and especially in the case of the former adopting whole heartedly a Whig Freemasonic view of Irish history. How much is such carry on during the Troubles on the part of some Southerners to blame for contemporary completely head the ball Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism?

The irony is that throughout the conflict the Catholic Church, North and South, never veered from its support of the Northern and Southern states. In fact the Catholic Church never spoke out strongly against the systematic slaughter of its members in the sectarian murders of the 70s and 80s.

So objectively the Church was on the side of people like Cruise O'Brien.
 

McTell

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//
How much is such carry on during the Troubles on the part of some Southerners to blame for contemporary completely head the ball Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism?

Depends if you prefer a knee-jerk reaction to everything, or you prefer to find out causes and effects and possible solutions.

The church also lost 400 parishioners killed by "republicans" who were pretending to struggle for "catholic civil rights". Maybe if they had killed 800, the rights would have come sooner?
 

George Dillon

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Depends if you prefer a knee-jerk reaction to everything, or you prefer to find out causes and effects and possible solutions.

The church also lost 400 parishioners to "republicans" who were pretending to struggle for "catholic civil rights". Maybe if they had killed 800, the rights would have come sooner?

Ignorant post. I lived thru many of those conflict years.
In all that time I never heard any
"republicans" pretending to struggle for "catholic civil rights".

How old are you? Were you overseas during some of those years, or asleep?
Time to read more and write less.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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Ignorant post. I lived thru many of those conflict years.
In all that time I never heard any
"republicans" pretending to struggle for "catholic civil rights".

How old are you? Were you overseas during some of those years, or asleep?
Time to read more and write less.

He also has the Novo-Provo hatred of everything Catholic and traditional Irish.
 

McTell

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Ignorant post. I lived thru many of those conflict years.
In all that time I never heard any
"republicans" pretending to struggle for "catholic civil rights".
//
You're right of course, they were supported by ghaddafy and the soviets, and hoped for an island-wide revolution.

But these times they will say that they got involved in a struggle because of civil rights. Especially to american audiences.

I forgot to mention the thousands of catholics beaten up and kneecapped, along with the inevitable rapes of women and boys. The church knew about this, but if they said anything it could get worse.
 

Heraclitus

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Though it does not have as strong as presence on here as it has on Politics.ie and Boards.ie we still have some of contemporary "Liberal" Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism on here which is as rabid as anything you will find among Ulster's savage Prods though both less imaginative and thankfully at least so far less prone to violence. The Troubles I often feel freaked out the Southern Irish ruling class, or at least a very significant proportion of it, more than it did Unionist ruling class in Northern Ireland and certainly a lot more than it did the actually British one. One aspect of this was that we saw the rise of people such as Conor "Cruise" O'Brien and Mary Robinson putting forward the notion that Catholicism was a core problem driving the Troubles and especially in the case of the former adopting whole heartedly a Whig Freemasonic view of Irish history. How much is such carry on during the Troubles on the part of some Southerners to blame for contemporary completely head the ball Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism?
Perhaps some of this applies to the middle classes.
But the working classes are a different kettle of fish -- particularly in Dublin.
Their gripe with the church is more often than not the perceived snobbishness of Priests.

Priests typically came from middle class backgrounds.
They were perceived as treating the "money people" of the parish (Think Gerhard's people) more favourably than the local plebs .
Older working class Dubs will attest to this.

My grandmother -- an interesting case study that springs to mind -- who came from a family of inner city dockers and market traders, loathed the clergy.
But she was by no means "anti-Catholic".

She regularly prayed to st Anthony, visited and recommended Lourdes to anyone who'd listen in her local pub and owned a drawer full of religious paraphernalia.

Yet she barely attended mass towards the end of her life, and never had a good word to say about the clergy.
 
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shinshin

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You're right of course, they were supported by ghaddafy and the soviets, and hoped for an island-wide revolution.

But these times they will say that they got involved in a struggle because of civil rights. Especially to american audiences.

I forgot to mention the thousands of catholics beaten up and kneecapped, along with the inevitable rapes of women and boys. The church knew about this, but if they said anything it could get worse.
Soviet support?
You just made that up.
 

George Dillon

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Wrong again, McTell.
I can't keep correcting you.

The Provisonal IRA never received any support from the Soviet Union.

You really need to read more.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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Perhaps some of this applies to the middle classes.
But the working classes are a different kettle of fish -- particularly in Dublin.
Their gripe with the church is more often than not the perceived snobbishness of Priests.

Priests typically came from middle class backgrounds.
They were perceived as treating the "money people" of the parish (Think Gerhard's people) more favourably than the local plebs .
Older working class Dubs will attest to this.

My grandmother -- an interesting case study that springs to mind -- who came from a family of inner city dockers and market traders, loathed the clergy.
But she was by no means "anti-Catholic".

She regularly prayed to st Anthony, visited and recommended Lourdes to anyone who'd listen in her local pub and owned a drawer full of religious paraphernalia.

Yet she barely attended mass towards the end of her life, and never had a good word to say about the clergy.
Interesting. I think a lot of the Clergy, not all by any means, but a significant amount do have this often ridiculous snobbery in Ireland. I would also distinguish anti-Clericalism as such more anti-Catholicism as such, extremely pious Catholics have been very anti-Clerical and yet you have people such as Mitsui2 who are rabidly anti-Catholic while at the same time getting on great with the local Priests. In my experience Priests from Eastern Europe and the Middle East tend to be a lot more impressive figures than those from Western Europe and we cannot escape the reality that Irish Priests do seem particularly bad and often have hardly any interest in Theology or the Bible.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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Priests typically came from middle class backgrounds.
They were perceived as treating the "money people" of the parish (Think Gerhard's people) more favourably than the local plebs .
Older working class Dubs will attest to this.
It was Rain2Fire who inspired this thread.

Middle class is a vague term, actual haute bourgeois capitalists and big farming families often used to the Church to off load their homosexual or incompetent sons on. Catholicism in Ireland, at least in the South, is often very lax when it comes to sexual issues and things such as Hinduism or Hindu derived stuff while at the same time being very right wing on social justice issues. Often you will find people who say that they are orthodox Catholics but when you scratch them you discover they are anything but however because they hold right wing economic and political positions they identify with the Church's "Right". Than there is the weird- at least to me- world of Opus Dei.

The relationship of Religion to sociology is an interesting topic. Carl Schmitt back in the 1920s claimed that only really either peasants or Aristocrats make proper Priests and with the gradual eclipse of both groups in Germany the Church was bound to run into serious problems. Father Vincent Mc Nabb who was a very brilliant Ulster man who seems to be more remembered in England than in Ireland wrote a very interesting book entitled "The Church and the Land" in which he claimed that flower properly Catholicism needed an agrarian environment. I wonder how much the spread in our life times of both Pentecostalism and Salafism has to do with them reflecting in their own ways the contemporary urban slums.

Something I have begun to do research into is Jacob Frank and Frankism. You will find a lot of conspiracy theory stuff claiming that the Rothschilds are Frankists which is utter nonsense from the likes of Henry Makow et al however all that is total nonsense. Frankist Judaism was basically a social revolt of impoverished Jews against the Rabbinic elite and it's socio-economic values.
 

The Field Marshal

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Though it does not have as strong as presence on here as it has on Politics.ie and Boards.ie we still have some of contemporary "Liberal" Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism on here which is as rabid as anything you will find among Ulster's savage Prods though both less imaginative and thankfully at least so far less prone to violence. The Troubles I often feel freaked out the Southern Irish ruling class, or at least a very significant proportion of it, more than it did Unionist ruling class in Northern Ireland and certainly a lot more than it did the actually British one. One aspect of this was that we saw the rise of people such as Conor "Cruise" O'Brien and Mary Robinson putting forward the notion that Catholicism was a core problem driving the Troubles and especially in the case of the former adopting whole heartedly a Whig Freemasonic view of Irish history. How much is such carry on during the Troubles on the part of some Southerners to blame for contemporary completely head the ball Southern Irish Anti-Catholicism?
I would say very little.

The abuse of adolescent boys by homosexual catholic clergy and subsequent cover up has fueled Southern anti Catholicism to a far greater degree than anything from the Irish Labour Party.
 
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