Poll Do You Support The People Of Palestine?

[maxflinn]

I mean the people, not Hamas or Islamic Jihad etc (not that they don't suffer too mind..)

I do support them, and I think everybody should given the raw deal they've had and the suffering they face.

I think it is only through the educating of normal people that the people of Palestine can be saved from their fate as sadly the fictional Zionist narrative is powerful and persuasive.

The people in control of Israel also yeild great control over the US government, most prominent Western governments and the media.

So sadly it seems that the only way to bring about change is through people-power. If enough around the world demand that something be done then the clique of governments that enable the suffering of the Palestinian people will eventually have to relent and change will come, just like what happened with Apartheid South Africa.

So, where do the members of Pi.com stand on this?

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

 

[Yanshuf]

You should know there is no such place as Palestine - it is Balestine and the so-called Balestinians are really Jordanians and Egyptions.

 

[roc_]

The problem is the designed, concerted, distortion of reality.

Who wouldn't want to relieve Palestinian suffering? 

You think the Israelis don't?

You think Palestinians such as Bassam Eid, Nassir Ali, and many others who go against the insidious Palestinian Party Line don't?

You think I don't?

But this portrayal of the Palestinians as passive victims treated deplorably by the oppressive "Netanyahu government" is a distortion as much contributing to increased Palestinian suffering, as it is stupid, lying and wrong-headed.

The Palestinians aren't passive victims with no agency. 

The official leadership of the Gazan Palestinians last year ran a campaign of war crimes in the form of launching tens of thousands of rockets and missiles randomly at Israeli civil centres and deliberately at Israel's main airport and nuclear power station. 

That Gaza Hamas regime is dedicated to the extermination of the State of Israel and *of all Jews* and it has majority support.

The Fatah government of Ramallah's Palestinian Authority is currently running a campaign claiming falsely that that same "Netanyahu government" is planning to demolish the Al Aqsa Mosque. 

Their President Abbas made a speech at the UN urging his fellow Palestinians to ensure that "filthy Jewish feet" must be kept off the Temple Mount. 

PA and Hamas sources have been running disgusting antisemitic cartoons and videos urging young Palestinians to murder Israeli civilians on the street with knives and cars. 

It has been like this continuously with the Palestinians since 1919 when the Mufti came on the scene. www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/amin_en.html

People need to ask themselves why the agenda of portraying the Palestinians as innocent victims (and by implication portraying the Israelis as being solely motivated by malice) is so often mixed up with such stereotypes as "... The people in control of Israel also yeild great control over the US government, most prominent Western governments and the media..." as Maxflinn summarised it so nicely above.

 

[roc_]

And of course you have to throw in that apartheid smear.

Never would it occur to you to acknowledge that what you call apartheid is in fact actions that the Israelis have been forced to take to try and protect themselves against attacks, particularly wrt to the suicide bombing campaign of the early 2000's.

(But of course, the aim is to render the Israelis as defenceless as possible, isn't it.)

Never would you acknowledge the following very real differences with South African society, and draw the proper conclusions about the motives surrounding this smear. (Look at the character of the smear's originator for example, to better appreciate these motives).

- Israel is not an apartheid state for the 20 per cent of its citizens who are Arabs. Although they are critical of a range of discriminations and inequalities, 77 per cent of the Arab citizens of Israel say that they prefer living in Israel to any other country in the world. (Also, Arabs For Israel: Why I Support ISRAEL?)

- Israel is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic democracy. The Arab, Druze and other minorities in Israel are guaranteed equal rights. All citizens vote in elections on an equal basis. Discrimination based on race is against the law.

- The universities are integrated. Some Israeli towns and cities are mixed Arab-Jewish (e.g. Acre, Haifa, Jaffa, Lod and Ramle). The Israeli Courts are effective in countering unfair discrimination. Israel’s Arab minority participates fully in the political process.

- Israel’s Arab citizens also hold some collective rights as a national minority. Arabic is Israel’s second official language, and there is a thriving Arabic mass media, literature and theatre scene.

- The Israeli government is working to reduce the gaps between the minority and majority. Especially since the Or Commission of 2000, Israel has been closing the economic gaps, opening up the civil service, equalising welfare, introducing Arabic into Jewish schools, and improving access to higher education.

But as a leader of BDS put it so eloquently 5 years ago about their aims, "... We hope that in 10, 20 years the public will just take for granted the premises that Israel is an Apartheid state, and then we can move from there...”.

(It seems 10 years was a conservative estimate, or at least there are a lot of morons in the vanguard.)

Of course, the apartheid smear illustrates just perfectly the twisted logic at play here  - A state, based on freedom, democracy and the rule of law, that was founded so Jews can flourish, as Jews, and seek shelter from the shadow of the worst racist experiment in history, is condemned, and that condemnation is masked in the language of anti-racism. 

- "Do you support the people of Palestine"? - Maxflinn, your dishonesty is so marked that you even believe your own prevarications. Because Bassam Eid was absolutely correct when he said, "... [font='Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The “pro-Palestinian” activists have therefore entirely completed the switch from supposedly being pro-Palestinian to being fully anti-Palestinian.  While they claim to defend the interests of Palestinians, they in fact thrive on the deaths and unemployment of Palestinians..."[/font]

 

[maxflinn]

roc it has been explained to you countless times now by myself and others that the Zionist narrative you disseminate is fictional. 

As the Israeli historian Benny Morris said: Zionism did not visualise the Jews sharing the land of Palestine with the Palestinians, rather the idea was to displace the Palestinians, to 'transfer' them out so the Jews could go in in their stead.

The whole Six Day War myth has been exposed too, funnily enough by the honesty of some Israeli generals and politicians of the time. I've not got the time to find the quotes now, you've seen them before anyway, but they basically admit that the whole thing was about taking the rest of the pre-partition land and the ruse about the seven mighty Arab armies that wanted to throw the Jews into the sea was the cover story.

As Miko Peled said: the occupation didn't begin in 1967, it was completed in 1967, when the Zionists finally controlled all of the 'promised land'. 

Understanding the truth about the so-called Six Day War is paramount. It is essential to know what it really was: a land grab. The final piece of the Zionist jigsaw.

You appear to still cling tight to the fictional narrative and this is your problem. Embrace the knowledge of what really happened in 1967, and why, and you will no longer be able to reconcile the rest of the Zionist narrative with reality. You will free yourself from it!

 

[Ren84]

You should know there is no such place as Palestine - it is Balestine and the so-called Balestinians are really Jordanians and Egyptions.

Why are Israel supporters such racists?

 

[roc_]

roc it has been explained to you countless times now by myself and others that the Zionist narrative you disseminate is fictional. 

As the Israeli historian Benny Morris said: Zionism did not visualise the Jews sharing the land of Palestine with the Palestinians, rather the idea was to displace the Palestinians, to 'transfer' them out so the Jews could go in in their stead.

The whole Six Day War myth has been exposed too, funnily enough by the honesty of some Israeli generals and politicians of the time. I've not got the time to find the quotes now, you've seen them before anyway, but they basically admit that the whole thing was about taking the rest of the pre-partition land and the ruse about the seven mighty Arab armies that wanted to throw the Jews into the sea was the cover story.

As Miko Peled said: the occupation didn't begin in 1967, it was completed in 1967, when the Zionists finally controlled all of the 'promised land'. 

Understanding the truth about the so-called Six Day War is paramount. It is essential to know what it really was: a land grab. The final piece of the Zionist jigsaw.

You appear to still cling tight to the fictional narrative and this is your problem. Embrace the knowledge of what really happened in 1967, and why, and you will no longer be able to reconcile the rest of the Zionist narrative with reality. You will free yourself from it!

You wouldn't know "fiction" if it came up and smacked you in the face.

All you do is cling on to those little snippets of information you think bolsters your case (which case comes down to smears at the end of the day tbh.).

Take your quote of Benny Morris. Yes, he may have said in his uniquely provoking, antagonistic, disputatious manner, (which is very Jewish btw): "Zionism did not visualise the Jews sharing the land of Palestine with the Palestinians, rather the idea was to displace the Palestinians, to 'transfer' them out so the Jews could go in in their stead."...

But WHY do you not also tell us what ELSE he said? For example to understand the view you have tried to misrepresent above, what he said in full was, “The Zionist movement started out calling for the establishment of a Jewish state on all the territory of the Land of Israel, but from 1937 on, its leaders gradually abandoned the claim of 'it’s all mine’ and adhered to the ambition to form a sovereign Jewish state in part of the territory of the Land of Israel. Thus it changed its approach and consented to territorial compromise: that is, to the idea of two states for two peoples, a decision that derived in part from the logic of dividing the land between the two peoples living in it.”

And, "... unlike the Zionists, since its inception the Palestinian national movement has never retreated from its demand to establish a single state in the disputed territory... The Palestinian national movement has remained unchanged, throughout the different periods of the struggle, whether under the leadership of Hajj Amin al-Husayni or his successor, Yasser Arafat,” says Morris with near-palpable disgust. “It did not even change during the years of the Oslo process. In the end, both sides of the Palestinian movement − the fundamentalists led by Hamas and the secular bloc led by Fatah − are interested in Muslim rule over all of Palestine, with no Jewish state and no partition...”

Of course, Benny Morris does not represent the whole of Zionism, just as no one person does. Rather it is a function of many different personalities and views and hopes and bringing to the table certain reality-checks.

In particular, these The “New Historians” like Benny Morris are seen by many Israelis as "pseudo-historians", who seek to revise history to make it jive with Arab propaganda. (Those who denounce the “New Historians” as charlatans are sometimes called the “New New Historians.” ).

The same goes for all your other stuff you try to bring up above. You think you can selectively quote one or other person, out of context, who may even have just been having a bad day, and there you have the whole truth, because it confirms your prejudices. - You are not up to approaching what you are dealing with seriously. You just seek phrases and pictures you can bandy around that seem to confirm the stupid ideas that you hold. (A sorry excuse for an existence if you ask me.)

It is the likes of you that make people striving to build bridges weary - let's take your Benny Morris again. - He said a while back, “The decades of studying the conflict, which led to nine books, left me with a feeling of deep despair. I’ve done all I can,” he says. “I’ve written enough about a conflict that has no solution, mainly due to the Palestinians’ consistent rejection of a solution of two states for two peoples.”

You have ZERO interest in the truth, Maxflinn, if it upsets your prejudices.

 

[roc_]

Why are Israel supporters such racists?

Fuck off. You know right well that Yanshuf is not an "Israel supporter". Rather he is an Israeli Jew who lives every day with the conflict. Perhaps his views may not fit the "right-on" view that the throng of self-righteous on here demand as their dues. But I imagine that living your whole life with certain realities thrust in your face daily, affect normal people in Israel. How long have they strived for peaceful agreement? - Do you believe you yourself would be immune to an eventual hardening, and swinging to the right, that we have seen the last few years in Israel? Then he has to listen to Irish ignoramuses like you pontificate and repeat without pause all of the insidious Palestininan propaganda?? And what Yanshuf says about the Palestinian identity is very true and based in fact. There are multifold public records and statements backing it up. However, that has not ever stopped the Israeli leaders from fully accepting and acknowledging the Palestinians claims. No. They have never denied them those claims. Never. So yes, Yanshuf is saying something unpopular that no doubt tends to divisiveness. But you are no one to judge him for that.

 

[maxflinn]

roc, I'm a bit busy at the moment but will provide the relevant info re the so-called Six Day War later. I suggest you take it on board. 

Once you've finally realised that it wasn't what you've always thought it was, but something else entirely, you will be able to begin the process of cleansing your brain of the rest of the Zionist narrative.

Then we can discuss other aspects of the situation, but you must first understand the truth about the so-called Six Day War, this is vital.

 

[Dadaist]

My question to the OP is do you support the people of Palestine and the people of Israel? 

Football match this ain't.

 

[maxflinn]

My question to the OP is do you support the people of Palestine and the people of Israel? 

Football match this ain't.

Yes of course! While their suffering is in no way comparable to the infinitely worse suffering of the Palestinian people, Israelis too have been negatively affected by the scurge of Zionist criminality and terrorism, and IMO the lives of all the people of the land would be improved once the Zionist Apartheid regime is no more.

 

[Dadaist]

Yes of course! While their suffering is in no way comparable to the infinitely worse suffering of the Palestinian people, Israelis too have been negatively affected by the scurge of Zionist criminality and terrorism, and IMO the lives of all the people of the land would be improved once the Zionist Apartheid regime is no more.

I just loathe the use of the term 'support' in relation to complex regional disputes such as this.