Do you believe in God?

Quantum

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Lets get a good discussion on God going.

I for one believe in a being thats hold the universe together, that makes the rules and guides on a path. I believe that when we die our energy/soul transfers from this place to a different plain of existence where we can see our loved ones who made the journey before us.

I do not believe that a all powerful being sits on a cloud playing a harp.

What do you beleive?
 

Tadhg Gaelach

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This is the ultimate question.  Ultimately it is the founding question of metaphysics - Why is there something instead of nothing? I was brought up in a strict Catholic family, but in my teens I gravitated towards a kind of Western Buddhism, which sees God as something like The Force in Starwars.  Then I realised what an utterly vacuous idea that is.  These days, it easy enough for me to think of God as a Kantian noumenon, but to imagine a personal God is much more challenging.  The God that is shocked by Job's impertinence and asks Job: Where you there when I laid the foundations of the earth? And later sits down with Job as His own creation passes by, and is amazed by His own creation.  String theory is easy.  A personal God is difficult.
 

Colonel Zachariah

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Why stop at one...



Multiple gods in competition with each other using mortals as play things makes much more sense...
 

Sinbad

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Tadhg Gaelach said:
This is the ultimate question.  Ultimately it is the founding question of metaphysics - Why is there something instead of nothing? I was brought up in a strict Catholic family, but in my teens I gravitated towards a kind of Western Buddhism, which sees God as something like The Force in Starwars.  Then I realised what an utterly vacuous idea that is.  These days, it easy enough for me to think of God as a Kantian noumenon, but to imagine a personal God is much more challenging.  The God that is shocked by Job's impertinence and asks Job: Where you there when I laid the foundations of the earth? And later sits down with Job as His own creation passes by, and is amazed by His own creation.  String theory is easy.  A personal God is difficult.
Nothing is actually something though.

Science teaches us that before the big bang there was nothing, the problem with this idea is to create something it had to come from something, if nothing literally meant there was nothing there you couldn't create something from it.

You only have to look at life on earth, is it all one coincidence?  The Earth just happens to be the right distance from the Sun, the Sun just happens to be the right size.  Our moon just happens to be the right distance from the Earth. So many things needed to give us life on our own planet, surely it cant all be luck and coincidence.

I actually subscribe to the idea you mentioned, like the Force.  For me I feel everything is linked, everything serves a purpose and everything plays a part.
 

Quantum

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Well put Sinbad,

for years the church was afraid of science, but this was their biggest mistake.

Science wont end God, Science wont destroy the notion of God, in fact Science does the opposite, it helps to expand people`s views and opens up new horizons where even bigger questions can be asked.

Go back 400 years and people thought the Earth was the center of the universe, we asked what was our place upon the earth, now with knowledge and science we ask what is our place among the stars?

We now know how complex life is, we know how our universe was formed, but we still dont know how and why it was formed and who helped to form it.
 

TedHankey

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Quantum said:
Lets get a good discussion on God going.

I for one believe in a being thats hold the universe together, that makes the rules and guides on a path. I believe that when we die our energy/soul transfers from this place to a different plain of existence where we can see our loved ones who made the journey before us.

I do not believe that a all powerful being sits on a cloud playing a harp.

What do you beleive?
On what basis do you believe in "a being that holds the universe together"? On what basis do you believe in "a soul"? On what basis do you believe in "a different plain of existence"? Can you accurately and coherently define these so that they might be discussed?
 

Earnán Ó Maille

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"I, Haile Selassie I, Emperor of Ethiopia, am here today to claim that justice which is due to my people, and the assistance promised to it eight months ago, when fifty nations asserted that aggression had been committed in violation of international treaties.


There is no precedent for a Head of State himself speaking in this assembly. But there is also no precedent for a people being victim of such injustice and being at present threatened by abandonment to its aggressor. Also, there has never before been an example of any Government proceeding to the systematic extermination of a nation by barbarous means, in violation of the most solemn promises made by the nations of the earth that there should not be used against innocent human beings the terrible poison of harmful gases. It is to defend a people struggling for its age-old independence that the head of the Ethiopian Empire has come to Geneva to fulfil this supreme duty, after having himself fought at the head of his armies.

I pray to Almighty God that He may spare nations the terrible sufferings that have just been inflicted on my people, and of which the chiefs who accompany me here have been the horrified witnesses.

It is my duty to inform the Governments assembled in Geneva, responsible as they are for the lives of millions of men, women and children, of the deadly peril which threatens them, by describing to them the fate which has been suffered by Ethiopia. It is not only upon warriors that the Italian Government has made war. It has above all attacked populations far removed from hostilities, in order to terrorize and exterminate them.

At the beginning, towards the end of 1935, Italian aircraft hurled upon my armies bombs of tear-gas. Their effects were but slight. The soldiers learned to scatter, waiting until the wind had rapidly dispersed the poisonous gases. The Italian aircraft then resorted to mustard gas. Barrels of liquid were hurled upon armed groups. But this means also was not effective; the liquid affected only a few soldiers, and barrels upon the ground were themselves a warning to troops and to the population of the danger.


It was at the time when the operations for the encircling of Makalle were taking place that the Italian command, fearing a rout, followed the procedure which it is now my duty to denounce to the world. Special sprayers were installed on board aircraft so that they could vaporize, over vast areas of territory, a fine, death-dealing rain. Groups of nine, fifteen, eighteen aircraft followed one another so that the fog issuing from them formed a continuous sheet. It was thus that, as from the end of January, 1936, soldiers, women, children, cattle, rivers, lakes and pastures were drenched continually with this deadly rain. In order to kill off systematically all living creatures, in order to more surely to poison waters and pastures, the Italian command made its aircraft pass over and over again. That was its chief method of warfare.

[size=medium]League Threatened
[/size]


It is collective security: it is the very existence of the League of Nations. It is the confidence that each State is to place in international treaties. It is the value of promises made to small States that their integrity and their independence shall be respected and ensured. It is the principle of the equality of States on the one hand, or otherwise the obligation laid upon smail Powers to accept the bonds of vassalship. In a word, it is international morality that is at stake. Have the signatures appended to a Treaty value only in so far as the signatory Powers have a personal, direct and immediate interest involved?

No subtlety can change the problem or shift the grounds of the discussion. It is in all sincerity that I submit these considerations to the Assembly. At a time when my people are threatened with extermination, when the support of the League may ward off the final blow, may I be allowed to speak with complete frankness, without reticence, in all directness such as is demanded by the rule of equality as between all States Members of the League?


Apart from the Kingdom of the Lord there is not on this earth any nation that is superior to any other. Should it happen that a strong Government finds it may with impunity destroy a weak people, then the hour strikes for that weak people to appeal to the League of Nations to give its judgment in all freedom. God and history will remember your judgment.

Assistance Refused


I have heard it asserted that the inadequate sanctions already applied have not achieved their object. At no time, and under no circumstances could sanctions that were intentionally inadequate, intentionally badly applied, stop an aggressor. This is not a case of the impossibility of stopping an aggressor but of the refusal to stop an aggressor. When Ethiopia requested and requests that she should be given financial assistance, was that a measure which it was impossible to apply whereas financial assistance of the League has been granted, even in times of peace, to two countries and exactly to two countries who have refused to apply sanctions against the aggressor?


Faced by numerous violations by the Italian Government of all international treaties that prohibit resort to arms, and the use of barbarous methods of warfare, it is my painful duty to note that the initiative has today been taken with a view to raising sanctions. Does this initiative not mean in practice the abandonment of Ethiopia to the aggressor? On the very eve of the day when I was about to attempt a supreme effort in the defense of my people before this Assembly does not this initiative deprive Ethiopia of one of her last chances to succeed in obtaining the support and guarantee of States Members? Is that the guidance the League of Nations and each of the States Members are entitled to expect from the great Powers when they assert their right and their duty to guide the action of the League? Placed by the aggressor face to face with the accomplished fact, are States going to set up the terrible precendent of bowing before force?



Your Assembly will doubtless have laid before it proposals for the reform of the Covenant and for rendering more effective the guarantee of collective security. Is it the Covenant that needs reform? What undertakings can have any value if the will to keep them is lacking? It is international morality which is at stake and not the Articles of the Covenant. On behalf of the Ethiopian people, a member of the League of Nations, I request the Assembly to take all measures proper to ensure respect for the Covenant. I renew my protest against the violations of treaties of which the Ethiopian people has been the victim. I declare in the face of the whole world that the Emperor, the Government and the people of Ethiopia will not bow before force; that they maintain their claims that they will use all means in their power to ensure the triumph of right and the respect of the Covenant.

I ask the fifty-two nations, who have given the Ethiopian people a promise to help them in their resistance to the aggressor, what are they willing to do for Ethiopia? And the great Powers who have promised the guarantee of collective security to small States on whom weighs the threat that they may one day suffer the fate of Ethiopia, I ask what measures do you intend to take?
[size=medium]Representatives of the World I have come to Geneva to discharge in your midst the most painful of the duties of the head of a State. What reply shall I have to take back to my people?"[/size]

H.I.M. Emperor Haile Selassie, Appeal to the League of Nations, 1936

I don't believe in God, but I do believe that Haile Selassie accurately predicted the rise of the Fascists and the Nazi's in 1936, in his address to the League of Nations, and it's difficult to tell the difference between the Italian Air-Force and the Luftwaffe..

'Groups of nine, fifteen, eighteen aircraft followed one another so that the fog issuing from them formed a continuous sheet. It was thus that, as from the end of January, 1936, soldiers, women, children, cattle, rivers, lakes and pastures were drenched continually with this deadly rain. In order to kill off systematically all living creatures, in order to more surely to poison waters and pastures, the Italian command made its aircraft pass over and over again. That was its chief method of warfare..'
 

TedHankey

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Sinbad said:
Nothing is actually something though.

Science teaches us that before the big bang there was nothing, the problem with this idea is to create something it had to come from something, if nothing literally meant there was nothing there you couldn't create something from it.

You only have to look at life on earth, is it all one coincidence?  The Earth just happens to be the right distance from the Sun, the Sun just happens to be the right size.  Our moon just happens to be the right distance from the Earth. So many things needed to give us life on our own planet, surely it cant all be luck and coincidence.

I actually subscribe to the idea you mentioned, like the Force.  For me I feel everything is linked, everything serves a purpose and everything plays a part.
No science does not tell us that before the big bang there was nothing, our knowledge goes back to a certain point and beyond that we simply do not know. We don't know if something can come from nothing as we have never found an example of nothing and obviously we never will.

For a very very long time this lovely earth wasn't very lovely at all. And it will disappear one day as will we. Our existence is fleeting really and things will go on long after we're gone and long after the earth and our nearest star, the Sun, are gone.
 

Quantum

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TedHankey said:
On what basis do you believe in "a being that holds the universe together"? On what basis do you believe in "a soul"? On what basis do you believe in "a different plain of existence"? Can you accurately and coherently define these so that they might be discussed?
I look at the universe in a scientific way, whilst I do have faith from being brought up as a Catholic I have long since abandoned faith and replaced it with science.

Science does not have all the answers, and where we have blanks it would be almost unimaginable to consider that science could provide the answer.

The universe is connected in many ways, Gravity is a force that governs the very laws of our system and galaxy, nobody can really explain what gravity is and how it works, but we know its there and we have a understanding of how it works with us.

As for a Soul, there is no hard proof to suggest either way if one exists or not, what we do know is the human body is made up with energy, when the body dies that energy is released.  

There are various studies that are now bordering on the existence of a soul, 2 quantum scientists even think they have the evidence  to suggest one exists.

[font='Unit Slab Pro Bold', 'Times New Roman', Times, serif]Scientists offer quantum theory of soul's existence[/font]


A PAIR of world-renowned quantum scientists say they can prove the existence of the soul.

American Dr Stuart Hameroff and British physicist Sir Roger Penrose developed a quantum theory of consciousness asserting that our souls are contained inside structures called microtubules which live within our brain cells.

Their idea stems from the notion of the brain as a biological computer, "with 100 billion neurons and their axonal firings and synaptic connections acting as information networks".

Dr Hameroff, Professor Emeritus at the Departments of Anesthesiology and Psychology and Director of the Centre of Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona, and Sir Roger have been working on the theory since 1996.

They argue that our experience of consciousness is the result of quantum gravity effects inside these microtubules - a process they call orchestrated objective reduction (Orch-OR).

In a near-death experience the microtubules lose their quantum state, but the information within them is not destroyed. Or in layman's terms, the soul does not die but returns to the universe.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/quantum-scientists-offer-proof-soul-exists/story-fneszs56-1226507452687


As for a different plain of existence, we have scientific evidence to suggest that different realities do actually exist, again down to the quantum level we can see for the first time, various tests have seen particles fluctuate in and out of existence which suggests they co exist in 2 different realities.

So do different planes of reality exist? Science is certainly pointing that they do.

Finally I wont to leave you with this video, again it talks about the reality that other universes other than our own can and most likely do exist.



[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H1YcBoh1o8[/video]
 

Quantum

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TedHankey said:
No science does not tell us that before the big bang there was nothing, our knowledge goes back to a certain point and beyond that we simply do not know. We don't know if something can come from nothing as we have never found an example of nothing and obviously we never will.

For a very very long time this lovely earth wasn't very lovely at all. And it will disappear one day as will we. Our existence is fleeting really and things will go on long after we're gone and long after the earth and our nearest star, the Sun, are gone.
What we do know is our universe is expanding, but what is it expanding into?  What space does it occupy that is didn't occupy before?

What commands the universe to expand, what gives the universe life, everything points to a intelligence far greater than anything we can comprehend.
 

McTell

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We needed a God/s at the point when societies were congealing out of sight, over 100s of miles.

Just like society started when we stopped having incest and started trading our daughters with other men's daughters. So said Levi-strauss

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_L%C3%A9vi-Strauss

So could we accept this one of these centuries, and stop paying public money to "religions". By all means, let them continue their spiel, but no cash.
 

Quantum

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McTell said:
We needed a God/s at the point when societies were congealing out of sight, over 100s of miles.

Just like society started when we stopped having incest and started trading our daughters with other men's daughters. So said Levi-strauss

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_L%C3%A9vi-Strauss

So could we accept this one of these centuries, and stop paying public money to "religions". By all means, let them continue their spiel, but no cash.
The cash came from Man though, God himself never demanded that the human race must forfeit cash to worship him, the church however which actually does not represent God on Earth did demand cash.

The problem with religion is that Organised Religion took over and realised they were onto a money spinner, the fake appearance at knock is proof of how man uses God to become richer.
 
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