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Self Moderated Cardinal Pell - Australian Justice in the Dock

Tadhg Gaelach

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Warning: This is a Self Moderated thread. Any off topic spam will be removed by me.

This is a thread for a rational discussion of the extraordinary trial of Cardinal George Pell, and his appeal against the verdict of that trial. No off topic posts will be allowed. If you just want to tell us all how much you hate the Catholic Church and how all priests and nuns are rapists, then take it somewhere else. Here was are only interested in the legal aspects of the case.

Cardinal Pell's appeal will be heard on the 5th and 6th of June, before three judges. I believe that he has a very good chance, as three judges are unlikely to have been as influenced by the media hysteria as ordinary members of the public are. It's likely that they will look at the fact that no evidence has been put forward by the prosecution against Cardinal Pell, other than the uncorroborated word of a mentally ill man - who was deemed too mentally unsound to appear in court or be cross examined by the defense.

Which is not to say that mentally ill people shouldn't be heard. Of course they should. But, mentally ill or not, the evidence tendered by any witness must be subject to cross examination, and must be within the bounds of liklihood. It is entirely incredible that Cardinal Pell had any opportunity to rape two sturdy 13 year old boys in a sacristy after Mass. Also, the witness was clearly mistaken (or imagining things) when he claimed he had stolen alter wine and submitted to the rape so as not to get into trouble over the wine. In fact, the alter wine was kept under lock and key in another room. Apart from that, the Sacristan has given testimony that the sacristy was always busy after Mass. And anyone who has ever been to a Catholic Church will know that the sacristy is a very busy place before and after Mass. And yes the priests do change in the busy sacristy, because all they are doing is putting on vestments over their outdoor clothes. They are not stripping off - as some ignorant people would have it.

 
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Ted

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Thanks to their shorthand justice the Aussies may have created a martyr instead of a villain.

In line with their commitment to modernising their system of justice they've invited tenders for the supply of five hundred ducking stools.
 
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Tadhg Gaelach

Tadhg Gaelach

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Thanks to their shorthand justice the Aussies may have created a martyr instead of a villain.

In line with their commitment to modernising their system of justice they've invited tenders for the manufacture of five hundred ducking stools.

They've certainly created a martyr - and an appalling vista for all men. Any one of us can now be accused and convicted on the uncorroborated word of one witness - who we are not allowed to face in court or question.
 
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Tadhg Gaelach

Tadhg Gaelach

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It would appear that the OP has notions that the courts of Australia aren't to be relied on.

It would also appear that this notion is based singularly around the fact that an Australian court found a Catholic Cardinal guilty of aggressive sexual misconduct (not rape - as the OP Tag Gaylick has incorrectly suggested in his second paragraph) recently and that cardinal is now sitting in Ballarat Prison awaiting his appeal. The exact charges against Pell were never rape in the full and legal sense, they were: wilful exposure, fondling, masturbation and oral rape.

Should the three judge sitting appeal fail, then Pell will be seen not just as a sexual offender, but a committed liar too.

Should he win his appeal, the church will still lose out anyway, because faith is shaken at the foundations.

The fact that the verdict on his recent trial was a guilty one has already taken root.

That will be hard to shake off without Pell having any actual and contrary evidence of his own to offer the court, but rather his defence hinging on the claiming of the word of a mentally-ill patient who allegedly suffered Pell's sexual misconduct as unfounded or shaky. The mentally ill man in question was awarded anonymity due to his vulnerable condition; so to expect for his to be wheeled out during the appeal will be a stretch to imagine.



No - this is completely incorrect: this isn't about Irish law but Australian Law. Therefore it has nothing to do with 'us' per se, but rather about Australians who may find themselves in an Australian court. The only way 'we' or 'us' could possibly be accused in a similiar manner is if we were to travel down to Australia and commit crimes there.

It's both foolish and incorrect to conflate the two different jurisdictions of two different nations on two different hemispheres of the planet and call them the same by insisting that Australian Law can accuse 'us' on the word of one man - mentally ill or otherwise.

It's simply not true: we are Irish, they are Australian.

They're not the one court or justice system.

Can you explain to us how oral rape is not rape?

Irish courts can refer to Australian case law, since Australia operates an Anglo-Saxon common law system as Ireland does.
 
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Tadhg Gaelach

Tadhg Gaelach

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77 years old, heart trouble...hmmmmm.... I won't be surprised if there's a fatal myocardial infarction before June, lads.

Yes, it will be devastating for the Australian judicial system and police force if Pell is exonerated. People will be asking how such an incredible miscarriage of justice could ever have taken place in a modern country.
 

Vengeful Glutton

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Well, we don't know if it was a miscarriage of justice, do we? He could be guilty.

However, you'd have to really stretch the laws of probability to render the sole witnesses's claims an iota of credibility.

How did Pell get his pee pee out from under his heavy holy vestments in such a short space of time, during a busy period in the Church schedule?

Did he have a bespoke vestment made for occasions like this?

Moreover, how on earth did he "force" two teenagers to blow him off? Subduing two teenage boys in a sacristy just after mass?
 
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Tadhg Gaelach

Tadhg Gaelach

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Well, we don't know if it was a miscarriage of justice, do we? He could be guilty.

However, you'd have to really stretch the laws of probability to render the sole witnesses's claims an iota of credibility.

How did Pell get his pee pee out from under his heavy holy vestments in such a short space of time, during a busy period in the Church schedule?

Did he have a bespoke vestment made for occasions like this?

Moreover, how on earth did he "force" two teenagers to blow him off? Subduing two teenage boys in a sacristy just after mass?

I'd say it was a miscarriage of justice even if he was guilty, as he didn't get a fair trial. There were massive inconsistencies in the evidence of the sole prosecution witness, but the defense were not allowed to test these inconsistencies in cross examination.
 
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Tadhg Gaelach

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Like most bishops and cardinals, Cardinal Pell is a bourgeois type who actually believes in the fairness of the bourgeois legal system. In that respect, he was a sitting duck. If he had spent some more time among the Native Australians he wouldn't have been living under the cloud of such ignorance and naivety.
 

Vengeful Glutton

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I'd say it was a miscarriage of justice even if he was guilty, as he didn't get a fair trial. There were massive inconsistencies in the evidence of the sole prosecution witness, but the defense were not allowed to test these inconsistencies in cross examination.
I've never seen a complete transcript of the proceedings (has anyone?).

Counsel for the defense did cross examine the witness in the first trial (albeit by video link)? No?
 
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