Can we create a new national movement out of the ashes of the abortion referendum?

Cruimh

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#13
The church was very suspicious of Catholic Action groups and tried to ensure that they were monitored and if possible controlled by Priests and the Bishops.

So - among the patrons of the Iona Institute -

Vincent Twomey: Fr Twomey is a member of the Divine Word Missionaries. He was professor of moral theology at St Patrick’s College, Maynooth, until 2006. He is one of Ireland’s foremost experts in Catholic moral theology.

Bishop Ken Clarke: The Right Revd Ken Clarke is the former Church of Ireland Bishop of Kilmore, Elphin and Ardagh.
 

Statsman

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#14
The fundamental problem is the assumption that a vote in a referendum will equate to a vote in a GE; there is no reason to assume that an FG voter who supports that party's economic policies will switch allegiance ont he basis of the Repeal referendum. It is highly unlikely. People vote in referendums an a single issue, but in a GE most voters vote on a multiplicity of issues, including how they feel about the local candidates. That's not changing.
 
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#16
The church was very suspicious of Catholic Action groups and tried to ensure that they were monitored and if possible controlled by Priests and the Bishops.

So - among the patrons of the Iona Institute -

Vincent Twomey: Fr Twomey is a member of the Divine Word Missionaries. He was professor of moral theology at St Patrick’s College, Maynooth, until 2006. He is one of Ireland’s foremost experts in Catholic moral theology.

Bishop Ken Clarke: The Right Revd Ken Clarke is the former Church of Ireland Bishop of Kilmore, Elphin and Ardagh.
Is Twomey the chap behind that vile rag "Alive"?
 

Cruimh

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#18
The fundamental problem is the assumption that a vote in a referendum will equate to a vote in a GE; there is no reason to assume that an FG voter who supports that party's economic policies will switch allegiance ont he basis of the Repeal referendum. It is highly unlikely. People vote in referendums an a single issue, but in a GE most voters vote on a multiplicity of issues, including how they feel about the local candidates. That's not changing.
Very much the case in NI where people vote for the 2 dominant parties despite, as much as because, of their policies on abortion and Gay issues
 
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#20
Very much the case in NI where people vote for the 2 dominant parties despite, as much as because, of their policies on abortion and Gay issues
I think, "despite", far outweighs the "because of" in relation to northern politics, where everything boils down to the national question. Typical question voter asks prior to putting an x or a 1,2,3 on their slip is "Which one of ussuns, or at a stretch the least toxic of themmuns, can beat the most toxic of themmuns". A recent example of this was the election of Danny Kinahan in 2015, seen as an acceptable unionist in a seat nationalists couldn't take from Boxcar Willie McCrea.
 
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#21
Casablanca
"Well constructed OP. But I don’t seen anything in that isn’t being offered by various small outfits at the mo, and there lies the issue: it’s a small market.
A party/movement that incorporates policies that any sex outside marriage is wrong and Catholics should go to confession once a month will be seen as irrelevant.
A glorified Legion of Mary overlapping in parts with Iona and The National Party will have as little success as those entities do.
And in any case, like all Irish fringe movements, the 2nd meeting will be to discuss the split."


Well thats a very fair point, that maybe there are other groups out there so whats the point in forming a new one? I mean we have all these Christian schools for example, and many Irish people go to mass, or Protestant religious services, so they combat atheism there so why form a new group?

But I wonder if half the time in these schools, and in sermons, are they really trying to push Christianity? If you scratch the surface there they seem to be disinterested in religion actually. I know a guy for example, who I think is about 60 - or a bit less maybe - who goes to mass everyday and I think has done so for maybe 30 years, and recently he wrote on a web form that he heard for the very first time a sermon on Humanae Vitae. For those who don't know, thats the modern encyclical which rules out unnatural family planning for Catholics, so a pretty substantial chunk of the doctrine of the faith he only hears about now (in a sermon anyway)? If you go to mass you will realise pretty quickly that they really don't talk about stuff like that now at all.

And maybe thats true of a substantial number of Catholic - and some Protestant - organisations out there, they actually aren't trying to articulate Christian doctrine. I know another guy who goes to a large and serious Catholic prayer group, only to be told by some of the participants that they voted for abortion, and that doesn't seem to cause any problem!

So yes its a very valid question whether a new group is really needed but on balance I think it is.


Gin Soaked
"And Renua tried this and died without a trace.."

Actually they didn't though. Renua were very milk and watery about these social issues before the last election, its only after it that they have become socially conservative and so it hasn't been tested in elections yet.

Statsman
"The fundamental problem is the assumption that a vote in a referendum will equate to a vote in a GE; there is no reason to assume that an FG voter who supports that party's economic policies will switch allegiance ont he basis of the Repeal referendum. It is highly unlikely."

I don't think people are going to forget this referendum half as quickly as some political commentators would have us believe!

Cruimh
"Worth pointing out that Christ was at pains to point out he wasn't a nationalist, and that wile I disagree with the Vatican's thoughts on many issues, I do agree with their disapproval of nationalism."

I didn't know that was the Vatican's view. I think love of ones country, and a passionate wish to see it do well and for the well being of your fellow citizens, which is nationalism, is a good thing and I'd say traditional Christianity has always seen it to be such.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

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#22
I think the main problem with this plan is that most of the Priests and all of the Bishops would hysterically oppose such a movement.
 

Statsman

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#23
Statsman
"The fundamental problem is the assumption that a vote in a referendum will equate to a vote in a GE; there is no reason to assume that an FG voter who supports that party's economic policies will switch allegiance ont he basis of the Repeal referendum. It is highly unlikely."

I don't think people are going to forget this referendum half as quickly as some political commentators would have us believe!
I think some people won't, but the lesson of history is that most will. The people who lost previous abortion referendums continued to vote for the main parties, on the whole. The people who voted no to divorce, similarly. We shall see.
 

Cruimh

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#24
Cruimh
"Worth pointing out that Christ was at pains to point out he wasn't a nationalist, and that wile I disagree with the Vatican's thoughts on many issues, I do agree with their disapproval of nationalism."

I didn't know that was the Vatican's view. I think love of ones country, and a passionate wish to see it do well and for the well being of your fellow citizens, which is nationalism, is a good thing and I'd say traditional Christianity has always seen it to be such.
I think their attitude is that Nationalism is exclusive rather than inclusive, which is after all contrary to what Christ preached.

SPECIAL ASSEMBLY FOR AMERICA
OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS


16 November-12 December 1997


H.Em. Card. Angelo SODANO , Secretary of State


On my part, I would like, today, to underline that which is of value not only for the individual Christian, but also globally, for all people. The encounter with Christ must both bring our communities to repudiate every nationalist egoism, and bring us to open ourselves to universal fraternity.


Fortunately, that virus of blind nationalism, which has caused so much evil in this century to various peoples of Europe and which today is infecting some regions of Africa, has not taken root in America.

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_17_speciale-america-1997/02_inglese/b14_02.html





THE FIFTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF
THE UNITED NATIONS ORGANIZATION

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II



United Nations Headquarters (New York)
Thursday, 5 October 1995


Respect for Differences


9. During my pastoral pilgrimages to the communities of the Catholic Church over the past seventeen years, I have been able to enter into dialogue with the rich diversity of nations and cultures in every part of the world. Unhappily, the world has yet to learn how to live with diversity, as recent events in the Balkans and Central Africa have painfully reminded us. The fact of "difference", and the reality of "the other", can sometimes be felt as a burden, or even as a threat. Amplified by historic grievances and exacerbated by the manipulations of the unscrupulous, the fear of "difference" can lead to a denial of the very humanity of "the other": with the result that people fall into a cycle of violence in which no one is spared, not even the children. We are all very familiar today with such situations; at this moment my heart and my prayers turn in a special way to the sufferings of the sorely tried peoples of Bosnia-Hercegovina.


From bitter experience, then, we know that the fear of "difference", especially when it expresses itself in a narrow and exclusive nationalism which denies any rights to "the other", can lead to a true nightmare of violence and terror. And yet if we make the effort to look at matters objectively, we can see that, transcending all the differences which distinguish individuals and peoples, there is a fundamental commonality. For different cultures are but different ways of facing the question of the meaning of personal existence. And it is precisely here that we find one source of the respect which is due to every culture and every nation: every culture is an effort to ponder the mystery of the world and in particular of the human person: it is a way of giving expression to the transcendent dimension of human life. The heart of every culture is its approach to the greatest of all mysteries: the mystery of God.





11. In this context, we need to clarify the essential difference between an unhealthy form of nationalism, which teaches contempt for other nations or cultures, and patriotism, which is a proper love of one's country. True patriotism never seeks to advance the well-being of one's own nation at the expense of others. For in the end this would harm one's own nation as well: doing wrong damages both aggressor and victim. Nationalism, particularly in its most radical forms, is thus the antithesis of true patriotism, and today we must ensure that extreme nationalism does not continue to give rise to new forms of the aberrations of totalitarianism. This is a commitment which also holds true, obviously, in cases where religion itself is made the basis of nationalism, as unfortunately happens in certain manifestations of so-called "fundamentalism".

http://www.vaticanHYPERLINK "http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1995/october/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_05101995_address-to-uno_en.html".va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1995/october/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_05101995_address-to-uno_en.html




THE CULTURE OF THE NATION IN CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE FAITH VIEWS CONTEMPORARY NATIONALISMS


Bishop Donal MURRAY
Auxiliary Bishop of Dublin (Ireland)


Ireland thus provides a particular example of one of the dangers in the relationship between faith and nationalism — the danger of confusing loyalty to God with loyalty to one's political and cultural tradition:


"When one or both parties to an intercommunal conflict are strongly identified with a religious tradition which excludes their opponents, there is a likelihood of needs and aims becoming identified with "the will of God"" (Sectarianism, a discussion document, Irish Inter Church Meeting 1993, p. 33).


This can result in an "idolatrous nationalism" which gives to one's country — or to an idealised image of one's country — the wholehearted loyalty of heart and soul and mind which belongs to God alone. In such an idealised image, people of the other "side" are not regarded as truly belonging. Indeed, they are seen as "the enemy".


One of the benefits of closer ties among the peoples of Europe may be a relativising of these exaggerated loyalties. It will become clearer that there is no necessary connection between Catholicism and nationalism or between Protestantism and unionism. Irish Catholics will be in closer contact with other European Catholics who, though equally committed Catholics, feel no particular attraction to the idea of a united Ireland. Irish Protestants will meet their counterparts, fully belonging to the Protestant tradition, who have no strong views about whether Northern Ireland should remain a part of the United Kingdom.


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/cultr/documents/rc_pc_cultr_01031996_doc_i-1996-stu_en.html
 
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