Armistice Day - Time Ireland remembered her dead

redunited

Political Irish
Joined
Feb 5, 2016
Threads
3
Messages
31
Likes
19
#1
Today is Armistice day,

Armistice Day is commemorated every year on November 11 to mark the armistice signed between the Allies of World War I and Germany at Compiègne, France, for the cessation of hostilities on the Western Front of World War I, which took effect at eleven o'clock in the morning—the "eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month" of 1918. The date was declared a national holiday in many allied nations, and coincides with Remembrance Day and Veterans Day, public holidays.

In Britain and Commonwealth countries
Both Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday are commemorated formally. In recent years Armistice Day has become increasingly recognised, and many people now attend the 11:00 a.m. ceremony at the Cenotaph in London – an event organised by Royal British Legion, a British charity dedicated to perpetuating the memory of those who served in the First World War and veterans of all subsequent wars involving British and Commonwealth troops.[5] In New Zealand and Australiaobservance ceremonies take place, but the day is not a public holiday. Anzac Day, on 25 April, is a public holiday and day of remembrance.
In Canada, 11 November is a time to honor living veterans. Patriotic displays are created annually,[6] and veterans (sometimes including active duty personnel, family members, or an assistant) are offered free transit and cab rides in a number of cities, including Halifax, Ottawa, Toronto, Mississauga, London, Calgary, and Vancouver.


In the United States
In the U.S., the function of Veterans Day is subtly different from that of other 11 November observances. Instead of specifically honoring war dead, Veterans Day honors allAmerican veterans living and dead. The official national remembrance of those killed in action is Memorial Day, originally called 'Decoration Day', from the practice of holding parades featuring veterans wearing their military decorations, which originated in the years immediately following the American Civil War.


In other allied countries
"Armistice Day" remains the name of the holiday in France and Belgium, and it has been a statutory holiday in Serbia since 2012. In Italy the end of World War I is commemorated on 4 November, the day of the Armistice of Villa Giusti.


In other countries
In the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway, the end of World War I is not commemorated as the three countries remained neutral. Denmark is instead keeping "Flagday" on the 5th of September in commemoration of both living and dead soldiers who served in any conflict.


Armistice Day - Wikipedia

Irish dead in WW1

There is no agreement on the total number of Irish soldiers who served in the British Army and Navy in the First World War. Professor Keith Jeffery gives a figure of 210,000. There appears to be a consensus that at least 35,000 died though the figure on the National War Memorial is 49,400.


Is it not about time we grew up as a nation and took this day to not only remember our war dead, but thank them for their sacrifice?

It matters not the reasons or who governed our country, these brave men and woman stood up for the Ireland they believed in and fought for what they believed in. Just like those in the rebellion who did exactly the same.

Its time we accepted the poppy, white or red and proudly stood by this day like all the other allies we fought with and shared in the remembrance of what war is and the horrors associated with it whilst thanking those who did their duty.




 
Joined
Feb 5, 2016
Threads
13
Messages
603
Likes
417
#2
I have long wondered why we Irish hold such hostility to this day, its the biggest loss of life of Irish in any single conflict around the world and yet we sort of cover it up as it were some stain on our existence.

These were Irish people, we should offer them some sort of national remembrance.
 

Gaelswidow

Political Irish
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Threads
17
Messages
1,099
Likes
570
#3
A good piece of the history of "poppy day" in Ireland.

Poppy Day in Dublin in the ‘20s and ‘30s


The commemoration of those Irishmen who died in the British forces during World War I is still a contentious issue in southern Ireland. For many, the manner in which the dead are honoured, and the wearing of symbols like the poppy carry deep political significance. During the 1920s and 1930s the issue was even more fraught. The Free State was bitterly divided between pro-and anti-Treaty forces, both of whom had been in conflict with the British only a few years previously. Also, a strong southern unionist current of opinion still existed, which helped make Poppy Day a focus for competing ideologies in the new state.

For republicans—the IRA, Sinn Féin, and after 1926, Fianna Fáil—Poppy Day was a celebration of imperialism, an affront to everything they stood for. It represented the flaunting of the despised Union Jack, the ‘butcher’s apron’, over those who had fought its representatives from 1916 to 1921. Despite the fact that some republicans had fought in the Great War themselves, including leading IRA figures such as Mick Price, and the legendary Tom Barry, Poppy Day was seen as ‘nothing more or less than homage of loyalty to England’s King’. Indeed the eve of Poppy Day became an important mobilising point for the IRA and the whole spectrum of radical republicanism. Under the aegis of the League Against Imperialism crowds would gather at College Green to hear speakers denounce ‘the flagrant display of British Imperialism disguised as Armistice celebrations’. A report by Chief Superintendent Brennan of the Detective Branch to the Garda Commissioner Eoin O’Duffy described how the rally in 1930 ‘comprised some of the roughest elements of the population’. He estimated about 5,000 attended the rally. The speakers that year represented the full spectrum of republican opinion. The main platform comprised Mick Fitzpatrick (IRA), Helena Moloney (Women Workers’ Union), Alex Lynn BL (a prominent defender of IRA suspects), Éamon de Valera (Fianna Fáil), Sean Murray (Communist) and Frank Ryan (editor of An Phoblacht). The second platform included Seán MacBride (IRA), Jack O’Neill (described as ‘communist’ in the Garda report), the feminist Hanna Sheehy Skeffington and Peadar O’Donnell (IRA). Violent clashes between republicans and police, or those displaying ‘loyalist’ symbols invariably followed these rallies. Shops and premises regarded as pro-British were singled out for attack, with a 1928 Sinn Féin leaflet listing Brown Thomas, Hayes Conyngham and Robinson and Trinity College as persistent displayers of ‘imperialistic’ bunting. After the 1930s rally, Gardaí fired shots in the air to disperse a mob who had chased two men wearing poppies into a tobacconist’s on O’Connell Street. It was at an eve of Poppy Day rally that Frank Ryan made his famous speech that ‘no matter what anybody says to the contrary, while we have fists, hands, and boots to use and guns if necessary, there shall be no free speech for traitors’.

However, despite the regular use of such rhetoric, republican publications and speakers were usually at pains to point out that they held nothing against ordinary ex-servicemen, only against the use of their sacrifice for the purpose of jingoism. Mick Fitzpatrick told the demonstrators that ‘Irishmen had no objection to people keeping green the memory of their relatives who had been gulled into fighting and losing their lives for the supposed defence of small nationalities, but they protested against such commemorations being made an annual excuse for the display of British imperialism in the streets of Dublin’. A resolution from Helena Moloney expressing sympathy with the relatives of the Irishmen killed in the war, and protesting against the display of British emblems was carried. A similar argument was made by Hanna Sheehy Skeffington in 1932, when she said that republicans ‘grudged no honour to the dead but objected to the dead being used to carry on the traditions of imperialism’.

De Valera spoke at the anti-Poppy Day rally in 1930. Indeed a letter to prominent IRA leader Seán MacBride from Fianna Fáil secretary Seán Lemass claimed that the party had circulated all cumainn in Dublin city to attend the demonstration and ‘to do everything possible to ensure its success’. However once Fianna Fáil was in government the difficulty of taking part in an event which invariably led to the disruption of public order became readily apparent to them. From 1932 there was no Fianna Fáil speaker at anti-Poppy Day rallies and it had to consider its response to Remembrance Day in terms of its effect on the government’s position. Rank-and-file Fianna Fáil members may have still regarded ex-servicemen as traitors, but the government were aware that they were a substantial section of the electorate. In October 1933 Garda Commissioner Eamon Broy wrote to the secretary of the Department of Justice recommending that ‘all marching, as well as the proposed ceremony in the Phoenix Park be prohibited’. In his opinion only church services, without any marching to or from, should be permitted. The Department of Justice however felt that it would be wrong to arrive at a decision ‘which might give offence to the large body of ex-servicemen in this country and…is of opinion that permission should be granted for the church parades, the march on the 11th of November and the two minutes silence in the Phoenix Park’. Broy’s objections were not simply the gut reactions of a republican, but those which his pro-Treaty predecessors in the Gardaí had also raised. The opportunity Poppy Day gave for the IRA to mobilise on the one hand, coupled with what the Gardaí saw as the provocative actions of some of the British Legion’s supporters, had consistently perplexed the force. On 7 November 1928 Chief Superintendent David Neligan had complained to the Commissioner that ‘this “commemoration” is fast becoming the excuse for a regular military field-day for these persons. I think the attached programme gives these men far too much scope, and certainly if the irregulars adopted these tactics they would be arrested under the Treasonable Offences Act 1925’. Neligan was a hate figure for the IRA since the Civil War and was certainly no friend of theirs. The attached programme he referred to was a cutting from the Irish Times which outlined the British Legion’s plans to march in full military formation, under the command of their officers, to the Phoenix Park. This display, complete with shouted commands and regimental and Union Jacks, was considered of grave concern to the Gardaí. A 1932 memo to the Minister for Justice from Commissioner Eoin O’Duffy warned that the Poppy Day ceremonies were ‘a severe strain on police resources’ and that while the ‘responsible promoters’ may not desire any trouble, many of their followers ‘take advantage of such occasions to display anti-Irish and pro-British sentiments’. A particular irritant was the number of people at College Green, ‘ostensibly to observe the “two minutes silence” but who immediately afterwards indulged in a “community singing” of the English national anthem’. There is no doubt that the practice of Trinity students in particular, in closing off College Green, and singing God save the King infuriated many Dubliners. For a section at least, of southern unionists, Remembrance Day was an opportunity to deny the reality of the changes that had taken place since 1922. A further point seized upon by the opponents of Poppy Day was the presence at several parades of black-shirted ‘British Fascisti’. This peculiar group actually owned a premises in Molesworth Street, but their public appearances were limited to Remembrance Day. They applied to join the Army Comrades’ Association in July 1933, but were refused. The Special Branch regarded them as being of ‘no importance’ but their appearance was the cause of much complaint. Eventually, the British Legion was forced to prohibit them, along with open displays of the Union Jack and military commands, from its parades.

Poppy Day was declining in importance by the mid 1930s. In 1935 however several of its most notorious opponents, including Frank Ryan, marched through Dublin with ex-servicemen in an alternative Remembrance Day celebration. Under the slogan ‘Remember the dead. Fight for the living’, Flanders veterans Bob Smyth and Tom Ellis, along with Ryan and Peadar O’Donnell spoke to a largely republican audience in Middle Abbey Street. Ryan asked why the ‘Generals…observe two minutes silence on one day for the dead. For the other 364 days they are silent about those who survived 1914-18 only to starve and rot in the slums’. After the outbreak of the Second World War Poppy Day marches were banned in the South, and following their renewal in the late 1940s never again saw trouble on the scale of the 1920s and ‘30s. However, how to commemorate those Irishmen who fell in British uniforms continues to provoke strong passions. Clearly, the conflicts surrounding Poppy Day in the ‘20s and ‘30s were more complex than some present-day commentators have allowed.

Brian Hanley is a postgraduate history student at Trinity College Dublin.

Poppy Day in Dublin in the ‘20s and ‘30s
 

Tadhg Gaelach

Donator
Premium Account
PI Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Threads
1,195
Messages
30,195
Likes
28,504
#4
It would have been much better for Europe if Germany had won WW1. WW2 would have been avoided, and really Germany had a better system of government than the English or the French. As for the Irish who were killed in this war, they were just cannon fodder for the British Empire. Their deaths served no purpose of value. We should remember them as victims of imperialism. The last thing we should do is get sucked into the English régimes exercise in Poppy population control and justification of current imperialist wars against brown skinned people.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
PI Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2015
Threads
486
Messages
9,439
Likes
11,311
#5
It would have been much better for Europe if Germany had won WW1. WW2 would have been avoided, and really Germany had a better system of government than the English or the French. As for the Irish who were killed in this war, they were just cannon fodder for the British Empire. Their deaths served no purpose of value. We should remember them as victims of imperialism. The last thing we should do is get sucked into the English régimes exercise in Poppy population control and justification of current imperialist wars against brown skinned people.
I agree with you that it would have been better for European Civilization as a whole if the Second Reich had won WWI. I dont see the Poppy though as a symbol of celebration but rather one of rememberance of suffering and heroism (however misguided it was); that is the way that most people in the UK see it.
 

Anderson

Take the red pill
Donator
PI Member
Political Irish
Joined
May 25, 2016
Threads
199
Messages
4,629
Likes
5,361
Location
Matrix
#6
It would have been much better for Europe if Germany had won WW1. WW2 would have been avoided, and really Germany had a better system of government than the English or the French. As for the Irish who were killed in this war, they were just cannon fodder for the British Empire. Their deaths served no purpose of value. We should remember them as victims of imperialism. The last thing we should do is get sucked into the English régimes exercise in Poppy population control and justification of current imperialist wars against brown skinned people.
I don't think so, German win the war?

I respect you Tadhg as a poster but sometimes you romanticise too much about other countries. Germany was just as bad as Britain and the other Allies, all of the msent men and woman to battle for their games. If you were a German soldier at the time you suffered no better or worse than a British soldier, you were equally cannon fodder.

Regardless of the history I do beleive Ireland should commemorate the deaths of so many Irish men and woman, no need to dress it up as anything Brtisih, we could do our own thing, but we must acknowledge their deaths and sacrifices.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Threads
65
Messages
5,338
Likes
8,082
Location
The land of the golden potato
#7
Germany was a normal power. Not a nice power but a normal one. Britain is a bizarre subversive state that has killed millions but is forgiven because it kills with a velvet glove. It's nothing but a gangster regime and the more honest brutality of the Germans is far more desirable.

I'd mull over the white poppy to remember all the dead and condemn all elites but particularly the French banking elite and mischievous and cruel characters such as Grey -- the John Kerry of his time.

So no I can't abide the red poppy -- it's just a symbol that has everyone in a pro-establishment daze as if the British regime are something other than a crew of coldblooded killers and thieves.
 

Tadhg Gaelach

Donator
Premium Account
PI Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Threads
1,195
Messages
30,195
Likes
28,504
#8
I don't think so, German win the war?

I respect you Tadhg as a poster but sometimes you romanticise too much about other countries. Germany was just as bad as Britain and the other Allies, all of the msent men and woman to battle for their games. If you were a German soldier at the time you suffered no better or worse than a British soldier, you were equally cannon fodder.

Regardless of the history I do beleive Ireland should commemorate the deaths of so many Irish men and woman, no need to dress it up as anything Brtisih, we could do our own thing, but we must acknowledge their deaths and sacrifices.

I'm not romanticizing Germany before WW1, but I think it is simply a fact to say that it was the most progressive country in the world at that time. Even the likes of Lenin said so. The German worker was the best treated in the world - far better than the British or French worker. Of course it was not perfect by any means, but it was the best available. All this propaganda rot that Britain was fighting for freedom and democracy is utter tripe. Britain and France were simply afraid of Germany's growing industrial and scientific power.
 

SwordOfStCatherine

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
PI Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2015
Threads
486
Messages
9,439
Likes
11,311
#9
I am wearing my Poppy, I have always done so this time of year since I can remember and I will stand against anyone who would try to stop me, however I think threads like this border on trolling. People should just be left to honour their dead and get on with it. People have been fooled with good motives into fighting unjust wars that their rulers had evil motives in- honouring their sacrifice is not honouring the scum who led them to their deaths. Life is complex.
 

Anderson

Take the red pill
Donator
PI Member
Political Irish
Joined
May 25, 2016
Threads
199
Messages
4,629
Likes
5,361
Location
Matrix
#11
I'm not romanticizing Germany before WW1, but I think it is simply a fact to say that it was the most progressive country in the world at that time. Even the likes of Lenin said so. The German worker was the best treated in the world - far better than the British or French worker. Of course it was not perfect by any means, but it was the best available. All this propaganda rot that Britain was fighting for freedom and democracy is utter tripe. Britain and France were simply afraid of Germany's growing industrial and scientific power.
What ever the rights and wrongs of the British or German Empires, it should still be noted that Irish men and woman died for what they believed was their duty and country.

It was a different time, a time when even the idea of a rebellion wasn't that popular and most Irish people were loyal British subjects.

We should as a nation mark and respect those who died, they were Irish and we should never forget them.
 
Top Bottom